Thread: Justice or Robbed of Justice ???

Jimbo, each person has their own set of moral codes that they live by, Period...

There should be no judgement of those codes..


"To each their own"

Originally Posted by Jimbo

However, happily, I have never known the distress that accompanies such acts against those I love. And I hope to God I never have to.

Really, I think the underlying principle in this statement is the meat of the issue here. Most of us can, to a certain measure, tolerate terrible things that happen to us individually. However, pretty much every person I've ever known has a sense of duty to protect their loved ones, or, to take that even further, someone who is an innocent victim. We as a species have a tendency to think that would we have been there when the offense occurred we would have been able to stop it, and in many cases maybe we could. Were that not the case, the world wouldn't be in such an outrage over a certain type of warfare going on in a certain country at the moment.

We tend to become outraged when someone we perceive as helpless gets hurt because we abhor what their attacker has done, but, to a certain extent, we deep down feel guilty that we weren't there for them, even if it were impossible for us to be and even if we do not know that victim personally.

I'm not a Christian, however, as an example, the Bible talks about God being love in the 1 John 4:8. I take that to mean that everything which God is can be encompassed in everything that love is and does. However, this would then have to mean feelings of vengeance or justice would be born out of love because in Deuteronomy 32:35, Romans 12:19 and Hebrews 10:30 the verse " 'Vengeance is mine', saith the Lord, 'I will repay' ". When you couple that with Genesis 1:27, where the Bible talks about man being made in God's image, it becomes a natural thing to feel vengeful when someone who is innocent or who is a loved one is harmed.

Even if you aren't a believer in Christ, the psychological truths there are still valid. You love someone or feel empathy for your fellow man. You see the person wronged. You naturally feel that the person should be punished and justice should be served. This stems out of a love for your fellow man. Some feel that the legal systems dole out enough punishment, and some feel like they'd rather take the matter into their own hands. But either way, it is a natural thing to have such feelings.

The problem in all of this is that people tend to associate vengeance to a negative definition, when in actuality, under certain circumstances, it is perfectly natural.

Now I'll say this, if the guy was murdered in his cell, that's one thing. He plead guilty to a crime and a sentence was handed down and no one else should step in and try to exact vengeance or serve up punishment because, as Jimbo stated earlier, law should be paramount.

If he just happened to have all the necessary components to commit suicide, that's another thing entirely. His guilt got the better of him, and he decided that rather than subject himself to some of the same hell he put those three ladies through he would just end it.

But, if circumstances were deliberately set up so that he could take is own life, the folks who set them up really haven't done anything wrong, since ultimately, he decided to end his own life. It was his choice and no one could make it for him. Sure, the wheels might have been greased a bit, but he's the one who decided to take the plunge (no pun intended).

Originally Posted by crouton976

I'm not a Christian, however, as an example, the Bible talks about God being love in the 1 John 4:8. I take that to mean that everything which God is can be encompassed in everything that love is and does. However, this would then have to mean feelings of vengeance or justice would be born out of love because in Deuteronomy 32:35, Romans 12:19 and Hebrews 10:30 the verse " 'Vengeance is mine', saith the Lord, 'I will repay' ". When you couple that with Genesis 1:27, where the Bible talks about man being made in God's image, it becomes a natural thing to feel vengeful when someone who is innocent or who is a loved one is harmed.

We are made in his image, but we are not him. Vengeance is his, not ours.

That said. History has show time and again that justice is best handled by a justice system and not by individuals. Because when individuals start meting out justice, invariably they end up killing people for personal reasons. If he was killed, that is as much a crime as what he did. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

And we do pride ourselves as being a gentlemen's forum, so let's keep things civil.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1 Contrast with Bind,Torture,Kill ..... also known as 'the BKT killer'. Gruesome murderer of 10 individuals and he is enjoying life at the taxpayers expense, writing poems and seeing the seasons change. I understand the folks who don't feel the state should take a persons life regardless of how heinous the crime, but I don't share their view.

Jimmy, I understand you.
However, you know as well as I do that a couple percent of people on death row are there not because they were guilty, but because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time, and the attorney general or district attorney wanted to 'win' his case. Even today, this happens regularly. These numbers are well known. And because the statistics only count those who in the end were cleared, the actual numbers will probably be worse.

So the question is not whether you agree with the killing of a guilty man, but whether you consider killing 1 innocent for every 20 guilty people a fair price to pay. That is really what it boils down to for me.

to the people who say: but what if it were your sisters, I can easily say: yeah, but what if your son is the innocent one on death row?

Originally Posted by Bruno

We are made in his image, but we are not him. Vengeance is his, not ours.

That said. History has show time and again that justice is best handled by a justice system and not by individuals. Because when individuals start meting out justice, invariably they end up killing people for personal reasons. If he was killed, that is as much a crime as what he did. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

And we do pride ourselves as being a gentlemen's forum, so let's keep things civil.

Bruno, first I want to say I wasn't trying to be uncivil, and I apologize if my post came off that way. So as to avoid doing so in the future, will you tell me which part of my post caused offense? I love you guys, and I love that we can have such deep discussions here so the last thing I'd want to do is offend someone. I've read through my post, but I just don't see what I said that was so off color.

Second, I didn't say that we should seek vengeance, only that it is natural to feel vengeful emotions. If I saw a tragedy happen and did not want for the perpetrator to be served justice, I would consider myself to be a sociopath. As I said before, I am not a Christian, but still believe that, in the end, people who do such abhorrent things will get theirs and I don't have to be the one to do it. There's an old saying about if you give a man enough rope, he'll eventually hang himself. I don't say this as any sort of sarcastic comment about the OT, just trying to illustrate a point. Call it reaping what you sow, karma, the law of three or anything else that you'd like, but the principle is still the same.

Third, I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right. If the man was murdered after a judge sentenced Mr. Castro to life in prison, then his murderer has broken the law and should be punished accordingly. However, even if the guards made it so that he would have the ability to off himself, they really and truly cannot be held to blame for him doing so, since they did not make the decision to end his life... he did. If I am a horrible driver and get into a crash because of my own actions and choices that kills me, do you hold the car's manufacturer responsible?

Originally Posted by Darth

As somebody who has put people in prison, albeit usually for espionage or other reasons.... Granted, I am a Soldier and have personally taken 39 lives over my 20 year career....

I thought the ethos of your profession was something like ' if you do it, don't talk about it'.

I'm wondering now if these words are written by a keyboard warrior, sitting in his underpants in a lonely apartment somewhere.

If you are what you say you are, the two statements are totally unnecessary and add nothing to the other points you were making.

Huh...

After reading many responses here I have come to the conclusion that many of you are much better men than I am, much more civilized and refined then I am..

I can live with that


I relate more with this guy and his code of Honor and Vengence.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/te.../#.UinzQN7n_IU

I dunno if you're referring to me in that group, Glen, but I'll say this: It's taken a lot of effort to rein myself in, and I believe, if pushed, I could pretty easily revert to an animal.

Why anybody would think a self confessed murderer who would purposefully kill an unborn child and treat people worse than animals has a right to live is beyond me. I know innocent men have been convicted, but theres no doubt here. Sexual deviants ( rapists, child molesters) are never rehabilitated. And some of these guys get off on a legal technicality.

I think any LEO or officer of the court, who is proven to have caused an innocent man/woman to be convicted of a crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It is a terrible thing to think that innocent people have been executed. It is no less terrible to think/know that innocent, wrongly accused and convicted people have been incarcerated. Does that mean that no one should be incarcerated lest we unknowingly convict an innocent man ? Anyway, I doubt if anyone is going to change their mindset on these issues from that which they had when they came into this debate.