Thread: What are we coming to or I don't believe it!

You all know that around 100 years ago folks were sitting around having these exact same discussions. One side saying the factory owners were entitled to it all and the employees should be lucky to get a wage no matter how meager. One political party had the attitude it was all about the entrepreneur who risks it all and either makes it or doesn't and if he does he's the king. The working man who won't take such risks is just a slug who should be lucky to get what he does.

Everything is a cycle and I have no doubt as things continue to slide the day will come when folks will have had enough and Unions will make a comeback. You can count on it.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You all know that around 100 years ago folks were sitting around having these exact same discussions. One side saying the factory owners were entitled to it all and the employees should be lucky to get a wage no matter how meager. One political party had the attitude it was all about the entrepreneur who risks it all and either makes it or doesn't and if he does he's the king. The working man who won't take such risks is just a slug who should be lucky to get what he does.

Everything is a cycle and I have no doubt as things continue to slide the day will come when folks will have had enough and Unions will make a comeback. You can count on it.

I'm not sure. Unions first start showing up on the scene during the industrial revolution. And many people point to things that took place during that period as justification for unions and their "successes". At that time the work day would have been more than 8 hours, the week more than 5 days. Kids were put to work like their parents and so forth. But if we think for a minute, that was at a time when our economy was moving from an agriculture based economy to a manufacturing based economy. Those families came to cities looking for work. And prior to, they were working similar hours on a farm. Those kids that were chained to a machine of some sort were probably getting kicked by a cow the year before. Unions came along and fought for a lot of things but what really made the change was productivity. Suddenly we were able to deliver goods and services to the market because the resources were finally in place to do so. Along the way unions made their contributions. But today they are a different animal all together - a political one, particularly representing a donkey. And they take union dues and funnel them directly into the democratic machine. Its not unlike a tax levied on the products and services these individuals produce that is paid to political party. In that sense, there is a difference today that might keep unions from cycling back. Its hard to say since the circumstances are very different. Today that kid that was once chained to a machine now lives in China and he's competing for a job that is currently here in the US (or somewhere else). Until that changes (or the cycle continues in China), we can probably expect more of the same.

Why of course Unions are helping finance the Democratic party. It's the Democratic party that has traditionally supported the working man in this country. With very few exceptions what has the republican party done for the working man? besides the Republican Party is flush with cash from so many fat cats and corporations they have more than they know what to do with.

Why do you think many of the Republican Governors are down on Unions? Put unions out of business and you've removed a serious funding source for the opposition party. Its a very unequal playing field.

As far as what unions contributed you have only to look at many countries in various parts of the world where unions are absent and you see poor working conditions and low wages and no benefits. You can try and spin it any way you want but the fact is no corporation ever did anything good for their employees unless they were forced to either by a Union or competition or social pressures or Govt regulation.

It's pure logic. The boss holds all the cards. You step out of line and your history and blacklisted. Unions gave folks a unified voice forcing outfits to negotiate.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Why of course Unions are helping finance the Democratic party. It's the Democratic party that has traditionally supported the working man in this country. With very few exceptions what has the republican party done for the working man? besides the Republican Party is flush with cash from so many fat cats and corporations they have more than they know what to do with.

Why do you think many of the Republican Governors are down on Unions? Put unions out of business and you've removed a serious funding source for the opposition party. Its a very unequal playing field.

As far as what unions contributed you have only to look at many countries in various parts of the world where unions are absent and you see poor working conditions and low wages and no benefits. You can try and spin it any way you want but the fact is no corporation ever did anything good for their employees unless they were forced to either by a Union or competition or social pressures or Govt regulation.

It's pure logic. The boss holds all the cards. You step out of line and your history and blacklisted. Unions gave folks a unified voice forcing outfits to negotiate.

OMG, where to begin? You see it as the Democratic party supporting the working man. I see it as the dem party creating a) a privileged working class at the expense of other workers, b) a steady influx of campaign contributions, and c) a far less free system of employment for both the employer and employee. The false assumption is that ALL employees want to be part of the union and pay union dues. This is not and has never been the case. When our first socialist president, FDR, signed the Wagner Act NON-union employees lost the ability to remain a minority and negotiate their own terms of employment on their own. Thank God for freedom right? Like it or not, they were amassed in with the union giving them no voice and thus, no justification for not paying union dues. Prior to that, non union employees could negotiate their own terms of employment and avoid being part of the union and its dues. Obviously competition and free market forces are not favored by unions. At this point, is the dem party working on behalf of itself of the working man? When our current president signed Obamacare into law he did so with the help of union support….the very same unions that now want exemptions from it. That in itself is a good example of corporations doing something for employees through legislation, regulation, and union pressure. Funny thing is the government and unions that applied the pressure are running as far from it as they can get. And once again, they have created a privileged class of workers at the expense of others. Unions and dems are not for working class people but for their sacred privileged class of workers, the ones who are levied as special tax the is paid directly to the democratic party. But make no mistake they are for this working class and not any other.

And as for republican fat cat cash, lets have a look at some of the top contributions of corporate dollars (’89 – ’12)

AT&T $57M 41% to dems 57% to repub
National association of realtors $51M 44% to dems 47% to rebub
Goldman Sachs $44.5M 53% to dems 43% to repub
American assn for Justice $42M 85% to dems 7% to repub
JP Morgan Chase $34M 47% to dems 51% to repub
Citigroup $32M 48% to dems 50% to repub
UPS $32M 35% to dems 64% to repub
Nat’l Auto Dealers $31M 31% to dems 68% to repub
Am Bankers assn $31M 36% to dems 63% to repub
AMA $30M 40% to dems 50% to repub

These numbers indicate that businesses lean right but republicans are FAR from running away with the entire vault. AND, I excluded all union contributions that OVERWHELMING go to democrats. Intermixed in these number is a total of about $644M of union cash with contributions going to republicans in the single digits.

Finally, your last statements about business sounds more like unions themselves in that everything I’ve mentioned so far has not addressed the thuggary, strong arm tactics, and history of violence that have characterized union activity over the years. Talk about blacklisting and paying a serious price for stepping out of line! There definitely has been a single unified voice since the unions (with democratic help) have silenced the voices of many NON-union workers. It’s a long standing myth that union activity has been noble and for the common good. A myth perpetuated by another union – the teachers union. And none of this even begins to address the false cost of labor and the havoc that it inflicts on consumer prices. Or the fact that once a workforce has gone union, there is no further vote from here on out. Unlike politics where you get to vote on it every 4 years, once you are a union shop there is no reversing that. Sounds wonderfully democratic! It also doesn’t address the number of jobs lost over the years as businesses have closed their doors and moved elsewhere to avoid union takeovers and the cost to business and gov’t that result from those closures. You see this as a benefit, I don’t.

Personally i think the main problem is that 10 years ago, we had Bob Hope, Johnny Cash and Steve Jobs, and now we have no Jobs, no Hope and certainly no Cash!

I have something to say about this, but allow me to preface it with the fact that I live quite well and can only be called, "successful", if middle-class.

Much of the commentary here seems to be coming from older gentlemen and I must say: it's your fault.

Now, please understand I am not saying this to antagonize or troll, and I may well say no further after this post. I respect you all an your opinions but, please; hear me out.

You raised a generation entitled; told us how great we were and how we could have -- and deserved -- everything. You told us that if we went to college and got a degree, we would get a great job. You raised us on the idea that thanks to the education we had available to us, we could do anything we wanted. You told us how jobs such as construction and "flipping burgers" were too low for us; in fact, that was used as the constant flail to keep us on task in our schooling: "you need to get the grades; you don't want to be flipping burgers when you graduate, do you?"
We studied hard, we got the grades and we graduated. We listened to your sage advice and took the courses you thought best for us and went to college. We got our degrees and we graduated with honors.
But where were the jobs?
Where was the cushy 9-5 with sweet benefits, signing bonuses and three week vacations?
We graduated into a world where you were lucky to have work and Wall Street executives toss us McDonald's applications and tell us to "get a job", like we were bums who hadn't studied! We worked hard, dash it all, and we were promised how that would pay off!
We got the grades, we got the degree, we joined the extracurricular clubs and you told us to work at McDonald's or Bill's Contracting.
We got mad. We occupied Wall Street...and we didn't show up when mommy tried to make us work at Bill's Contracting. We only wanted what we were promised...



...now let me end this by saying to my fellows, "shut up, lazy hippy bums!"
I didn't even get the grades and I have only a 2-year degree. But when it came time to get that job, I pulled no punches; I didn't give up just because I had one bad interview. I knew what I wanted and I worked hard for it. I got that job. That job, the one I really wanted. It wasn't handed to me; I had to swallow the pain of rejection after rejection, brush up on my interviewing skills (and those are really just social skills which, for a nerd like me, was pretty bloody hard to do) and kept at it. I got the job.

...but I didn't settle, either. I didn't take up a shovel or a spatula -- and yes, I had the women in my family trying to push me into those "in the mean time" as well. I knew that working full-time for Bill meant no time to interview, keep my skills honed and keep pushing for That Job. I didn't give up.

So cut the kids some slack. You blew up the economy with your carelessness (though it was no more your fault than theirs... the damage done was done centuries ago) and they inherited the fallout. So he doesn't want the job his mommy picked? Neither did I. Now look at me.

If you're trying to say there isn't much difference between republican coffers and democratic well that's a joke. You can cite all the money contributed through verifiable sources you want but it's the unverifiable ones where the republicans get so much of their money. Yes, everything positive to the working man is a job killer to the right. Why don't we just abolish the minimum wage and cut everyone's salary by 50% (except of course the fat cats) and we'll really be competitive again. Maybe outfits will start to move back to the U.S when they can pay their workers 50 cents an hour with no benefits whatsoever.

Considering how few workers are covered by Unions these days and how weak most unions are you talk like they are an unending source of finances simply bottomless like the right counterparts really are.

You talk about violence in Union organizing. Much of that has occurred through the encroachment of organized crime. However history is replete with violence orchestrated by factory owners on folks wanting to organize. How many have been killed and beaten senseless by strike breakers and private police forces brought in to break efforts to unionize? I believe it was Walmart who when confronted with union organizing in Canada threatened to close the store.

The bottom line is union shops have better wages and benefits to their employees than non union which is why outfits fight to keep unions out. I mean if unions were so bad I would think corporations would welcome them in so the employees would see what useless thieves they are. Unions can be voted out. it has been done before.

As to darth lord, it sounds like you're feeling sorry for yourself. You think hard times are only happening now? I found myself looking for work out of school in 1973. As I recall, with my M.A in hand I sent resumes to 150 outfits. You know how many responses I got back? exactly 5 and none resulted in an interview. I remember going up to employment agencies in NYC in answer to a job offer in the N.Y Times and there would be a couple hundred people applying for that same 1 job. Eventually I was able to get a job but it took a few years. You don't have any monopoly on a bad economy and rough times, You have to roll with the punches like other generations had to. Yes some folks came of age when things seemed easy but that was not the typical case.

Sorry if I sound harsh but if you are going to survive you need to adapt to the changing conditions. That's just the way it is.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As to darth lord, it sounds like you're feeling sorry for yourself. You think hard times are only happening now? I found myself looking for work out of school in 1973. As I recall, with my M.A in hand I sent resumes to 150 outfits. You know how many responses I got back? exactly 5 and none resulted in an interview. I remember going up to employment agencies in NYC in answer to a job offer in the N.Y Times and there would be a couple hundred people applying for that same 1 job. Eventually I was able to get a job but it took a few years. You don't have any monopoly on a bad economy and rough times, You have to roll with the punches like other generations had to. Yes some folks came of age when things seemed easy but that was not the typical case.

Sorry if I sound harsh but if you are going to survive you need to adapt to the changing conditions. That's just the way it is.

I think you misread my post. In the end I state that hard work and pushing for the job you want will pay off and that it certainly has for me. My point is not that it's hard to find work; it's that the previous generation has instilled my generation and even the younger ones with a tremendous sense of entitlement.

Sorry for myself? Not at all. My life is grand because I made it so.

There is enough violence to go around Speak Out Now!: The Strike at River Rouge: Detroit 1941 and Anti-union violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a few examples of company thuggery, strong arm tactics and a long history of violence against workers. Nobody is lily white when it comes to violence that is workplace related.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

There is enough violence to go around Speak Out Now!: The Strike at River Rouge: Detroit 1941 and Anti-union violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a few examples of company thuggery, strong arm tactics and a long history of violence against workers. Nobody is lily white when it comes to violence that is workplace related.

Bob

Exactly true.

Its common these days when an outfit is notified a union vote is to be taken, months before they bring in "consultants" who work over the employees trying to convince them a union would not be in their best interests.