Thread: A question on the constitution

Don't ever think that so called "Christians" in the west have not actually put into practice the killing of homosexuals for no other reason than their sexual preference. I despise/loath those so called "Christians" as much as I do the mouthings of the Islamic leader in the link. Just as there are radical Islamists they have a match in radical Christians. I don't have time for either group. You find radical sects in any religion and you should be scared of them all and not pick and choose.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Don't ever think that so called "Christians" in the west have not actually put into practice the killing of homosexuals for no other reason than their sexual preference. I despise/loath those so called "Christians" as much as I do the mouthings of the Islamic leader in the link. Just as there are radical Islamists they have a match in radical Christians. I don't have time for either group. You find radical sects in any religion and you should be scared of them all and not pick and choose.

Bob

Not only put into practice, but legislate into law. See, for example, recent legal and legislative tussles in Uganda. And you don't have to do much digging in that situation to see the direct influence of Western (in this particular case American) Christian pastors, advisors, and lobbyists.

Originally Posted by BobH

Don't ever think that so called "Christians" in the west have not actually put into practice the killing of homosexuals for no other reason than their sexual preference. I despise/loath those so called "Christians" as much as I do the mouthings of the Islamic leader in the link. Just as there are radical Islamists they have a match in radical Christians. I don't have time for either group. You find radical sects in any religion and you should be scared of them all and not pick and choose.

Bob

And they killed homosexuals in the name of Christ? I don't hear of that too often. So rarely do I hear of it that I simply can not ever recall it. I won't say that it has never happened. But I can assure you that you'd be very hard pressed to find a congregation of Christians who say they believe in stoning homosexuals. If you did, I would argue that it was a VERY small minority view point. I grew up Catholic and the church's opinion on homosexuality is a matter of record. But in all of my years going to church I never heard anything that might suggest that anyone but God and govt to be in the business of punishing anyone never mind stoning them. Now I will admit that its been many years since I went to church on a regular basis so maybe things have changed radically. I hear constantly about the radical sects but I'm struggling to find this massive contingency of moderates. Are all of the moderates in Saudi Arabia.....where we just recently heard of a blogger flogged a thousand lashes for what was considered a critical point of view toward religious leaders. Since we are on the topic of homosexuality, maybe the moderate population exists in one of these countries.


Yemen: According to 1994 penal code, married men can be sentenced to death by stoning for homosexual intercourse. Unmarried men face whipping or one year in prison. Women face up to seven years in prison.

Iran: In accordance with sharia law, homosexual intercourse between men can be punished by death, and men can be flogged for lesser acts such as kissing. Women may be flogged.

Iraq: The penal code does not expressly prohibit homosexual acts, but people have been killed by militias and sentenced to death by judges citing sharia law. Read ISIS.

Mauritania: Muslim men engaging in homosexual sex can be stoned to death, according to a 1984 law. Women face prison.

Nigeria: Federal law classifies homosexual behavior as a felony punishable by imprisonment, but several states have adopted sharia law and imposed a death penalty for men. A law signed in early January makes it illegal for gay people countrywide to hold a meeting or form clubs.

Qatar: Sharia law in Qatar applies only to Muslims, who can be put to death for extramarital sex, regardless of sexual orientation.

Saudi Arabia: Under the country’s interpretation of sharia law, a married man engaging in sodomy or any non-Muslim who commits sodomy with a Muslim can be stoned to death. All sex outside of marriage is illegal.

Somalia: The penal code stipulates prison, but in some southern regions, Islamic courts have imposed Sharia law and the death penalty.

Sudan: Three-time offenders under the sodomy law can be put to death; first and second convictions result in flogging and imprisonment. Southern parts of the country have adopted more lenient laws.

United Arab Emirates: Lawyers in the country and other experts disagree on whether federal law proscribes the death penalty for consensual homosexual sex or only for rape. In a recent Amnesty International report, the organization said it was not aware of any death sentences for homosexual acts. All sexual acts outside of marriage are banned.

So where are all the moderates? Based on the video, they don't seem to be in Norway unless we interpret the uncomfortable smiles as dissent. Are they here in the US where their populations are insignificant by comparison to everyone else? That would be nice to know but I'm not ready place any bets on that.

Originally Posted by Orville

Agreed . . . because Westerners generally have more (personally) to lose. So lets show them how Islam is NOT incompatible with Western culture . . . that, in fact, they CAN raise their kids to worship Allah AND live in security and tolerance, without having to fear that a different sect is going to come and kill them. THAT is how we stop them.

I'll use the example of Romania and Ceaucescu . . . it wasn't the brutality of the dictatorship, it wasn't the nepotism that caused the revolution. It was DALLAS. JR Ewing et al caused a revolution that overthrew one of the more brutal post Soviet regimes in the world, because the people got to see what (they thought) life could BE LIKE.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...86475890,d.aWw

Similarly, SHOW them what life is like here for other Muslims (good AND bad). Show them kids in college, working at SubWay, mingling with other cultures WITHOUT losing their Faith, and they will ask WHY NOT US? As soon as they start to ask their Leaders "WHY?" we win. Because the answer will either be a move TOWARD westernization, or it will be a LIE. And eventually, one of those Leaders will make the move, and the liars will end up against a WALL. Not because we put them there, but because their own followers did.

I hate to tell you this however many folks come to the U.S for instance, to Immigrate and after a few years they leave and go home. They don't think much of our freedom and society in general. They don't like having to make their own way in life. They prefer a society where your life is predetermined and everyone dresses the same and thinks the same and things are boring and life just happens. They don't want a fancy car or nice duds or their own home.

It's really not about Islam in general but a lunatic fringe really using their brand of it to advance their goals. You ain't gonna turn these folks no matter what you do.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

And they killed homosexuals in the name of Christ?

Used to, and if it weren't for the big government some would probably still want to do it. I mean we are open to consideration of genocide (jericho), torture, and defiling people's religious beliefs (rolling them in pig skins, killing them with bullets with pig fat) as possibly justified.

Here's what wikipedia has on homosexual laws in US

In 1779, Thomas Jefferson wrote a law in Virginia which contained a punishment of castration for men who engage in sodomy, however, what was intended by Jefferson as a liberalization of the sodomy laws in Virginia at that time was rejected by the Virginia Legislature, which continued to prescribe death as the maximum penalty for the crime of sodomy in that state.

Sure, it was 230 years ago, but sharia/bliblical law isn't all that foreign to this country - according to some of our threads it's the foundation for our laws.

In the middle ages the roles were reversed - the islamic societies were a lot more open and tolerant than the western ones. Good thing they couldn't exterminate us back then, or we'll all be studying the kuran instead of posting on the internet about straight razors.

As far as where are all those moderate muslims that do not kill homosexuals, fornicators, or rape victims - I would say they're in turkey, iran, egypt, albania, algeria, tunisia, morroco, afganistan and probably a few more countries I don't remember but those are the countries where some of my muslim friends are from and none of them has been more radical in their views than my deeply religious christian friends from US, italy, germany, ghana, nigeria, the czech republic, sweden, russia, greece, egypt, etc.
In fact on cultural issues like those they seem to have surprisingly similar norms of what is right and what is wrong and none of them has advocated killing people for doing the wrong things, rather that god will do the punishment when appropriate.

Originally Posted by BobH

Don't ever think that so called "Christians" in the west have not actually put into practice the killing of homosexuals for no other reason than their sexual preference. I despise/loath those so called "Christians" as much as I do the mouthings of the Islamic leader in the link. Just as there are radical Islamists they have a match in radical Christians. I don't have time for either group. You find radical sects in any religion and you should be scared of them all and not pick and choose.

Bob

And they are condemned for it by the Leaders of the Christian Faiths like the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. These "radical Christians" as you call them are not what I was referring to, but yes . . . they are the lunatic fringe. They may self identify as Christian, but their notion of what the term means is so far from the mark as to make the term irrelevant.

A Roman Catholic Bishop, espousing the murder of homosexuals, would not be a Roman Catholic for long . . . he would be excommunicated.

Originally Posted by gugi

Used to, and if it weren't for the big government some would probably still want to do it. I mean we are open to consideration of genocide (jericho), torture, and defiling people's religious beliefs (rolling them in pig skins, killing them with bullets with pig fat) as possibly justified.

Yes, every time I hear the Obama "high horse" argument that attempts to lump Christians in the same group, they need to go back to the inquisition or something that happened a thousand years ago to equate the two. If you go back that far you'd probably find that the entire world operated in that manner. If you live long enough, you see everything. I'll concern myself with what I'm seeing here and now.

I really have no use for any organized religion. They appear to me to claim to be riding to the rescue of the world if the whole world would only follow any number of "the only true way". In the process winding up in bloody conflict with each other. If there is a God, I believe there is, he must be laughing is heinie off at us.

Bob

The parallels are better between islam and protestant churches because both of them are decentralized.
Do we have radical fringe groups who believe that homosexuals, muslims, and jews deserve death, though they stop short of acting on it as that would be the end of their organization? Westboro baptist church comes to mind and they are protected by the US constitution for as long as it remains just talk.
Haven't we had in the relatively recent history radical christian churches killing doctors who perform abortion?

Of course, we have to go before we outlawed murder based on religious belief and decided that we'll be secular countries.
But at the time the US constitution was written US didn't make it its business to tell other countries they need to act the same.
We may want to turn a blind eye between the similarities between christian and muslim beliefs based on the temporal separation, but what does that accomplish other than making us think we're superior. In contrast if we see the parallels we have at least one path that has been proven successful.
As I said, one way or another we'll get there or kill each other in the process. We became peaceful and tolerant society despite all of the extremists and all the bloodshed in our history.

The current radical islamic theology is not an invention of ISIS or AlQaeda. It's an invention from the circles of the dominant sunni sects in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi government stays in power because of the agreement with those clerics to turn a blind eye on their extremist views and practices. And we, especially the US provide military support for that government protecting it from the external threats.

Nothing will change until the roots change but that's a lot harder and complicated than 'kill them all'.

Yes, just like slavery is complex issue so is islamic terrorism. We solved our issues with slavery, it took us a long time and a lot of blood and treasure; muslims need to solve their issue with their radicals. Solving it for them means colonizing them and developing their societies to our standards - is that even possible?

Originally Posted by gugi

.
Haven't we had in the relatively recent history radical christian churches killing doctors who perform abortion?

Yes it is in epidemic proportions, talk about a reach

In the U.S., since 1977 violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.

The last murder was 6 years ago and was very vocally renounced vehemently by even by the shooter's own family let alone the Christian community and there in we see the biggest difference..

Here are some interesting numbers from polls done over the years, about how Muslims feel...

Muslim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth


Today

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/24/world/isis-syria-iraq/


If we as the "HUMANE World" don't quit discussing and planning we don't deserve the title of being called Civilized any longer...