Thread: Protesters drive you to violence?

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

No K --- I wasn't aiming it at you but at the notion of taking one --even a handful of 19 year old American soldiers ---and thinking one has as adequate sampling. Documentaries usually have a political angle and will pick individuals from a group that support their cause ---very easy to do.

It's difficult being a superpower--- maybe we should let China have a go ---or how about the old Soviet Union --I'm sure they would do a much better job (sarcasm intended).

I would like to see every country free and strong and proud and unique. At its core, America is tradionally an isolationist prone country --relunctant warriors really --- I too wish sometimes that we could retreat, build a wall, and say by-by ---but it ain't that simple.


Justin

Justin,
You have just brought a tear to my eye.
You have put into words that which is in my heart!

As long as we have threads like this someone is going to be insulted. Maybe Bruno or someone else was insulted by the notion that war protesters are all idiots and that American war efforts are totally justified ---- I don't know but this kind of discourse is to expected . The best we can do is to not make it or take it personal.

However, Bruno --- you do tend to make global sweeping and somewhat insulting statements about America and Americans in general. Let me tell you --- you do not know or understand Americans ---no more than I know or understand Europeans or anyone else for that matter --including other Americans. But I do understand how these types of threads can bring about personal feelings --- just understand, if you care to, that some here do take offense ---

Let's do remain friends here ---it is a nice forum. Later, Bruno

Justin Fournet

Originally Posted by JMS

Justin,
You have just brought a tear to my eye.
You have put into words that which is in my heart!

I was feeling ya Mark ---- tough times these are --- I wish they could be simplier but wishing won't help anyone ---Here's to a better world!!

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

--- I too wish sometimes that we could retreat, build a wall, and say by-by ---but it ain't that simple. Justin

I know, you are right. But then maybe we should all in this country and everywhere else, maybe stop spending so much energy trying to figure out what got us there, and more energy trying to get the hell out. I personally believed that we had reason to go; one genocide was too much - one killing field justified the intervention. But the reasons for staying are getting more and more unbearable, and the cost is outweighing the benefit by vast numbers of degrees. That said, Darfur is the greatest regret and tragedy of our watch, and we let it continue, and great should be our shame.

That is not to say that there will not be a reckoning for Iraq, and that we should not investigate the past in order to learn from it - but all of the current posturing is unproductive and nonsensical, lets get on with it - and tell these children in Iraq that it is time to start running their own lives and being responsible for their own future.

K

Hi All, thanks for the politeness of the responses.
It was definitely not my intention to insult anyone, least of all the soldiers.
My observation was simply that the ones actually fighting the war and getting shot at don't always understand why there is a war in the first place.

It is true that Belgium cannot keep Iraq peaceful once/when/if the US leaves. The current force in Iraq is probably an order of magnitude larger than what we have in total. But then again, if Iraq hadn't been invaded in the first place, that would not have been necessary.

I did not know the exact numbers, but 400 Billion dollars is unbelievably large an amount of cash. It has been wasted on a pointless war, and the US has nothing to show for it except -very tragically- dead soldiers.
Maybe it is not my place to talk about the US government, but the simple fact of the matter is that the US foreign policies affects the rest of the world in a very real way.

We see president Bush preaching strict adherence to christianty and high ground morals, while at the same time he seems to protect corrupt government officials, condones torture and murder, and smothers scientific research that does not fit his view of the world.
Small wonder that we think badly about him and his administration.

My point about the 19 year old soldier in the documentary was that IMO the war does not need yet another soldier.
That 19 year old man can do much more for his country by being a honest politician or focusing in some other way on the domestic US problems.
But that does not detract from his valor or the fact that he is willing to do what he thinks is right.
Supporting the troops and the soldiers is very different from supporting the guys who made it necessary to send them and have them killed.

As I recently said to someone else on another forum: I like Americans and I like America (or I would not have married in the US) but that does not mean that I have to like the foreign policies of the current US government. They affect me in a very real way. But those are 2 different things.

It is true that we (EU and US) people are very different. Europeans really don't understand how someone like Bush can elected twice. Once, OK but twice?
Likewise, you would probably not understand how or why a teenie tiny country like Belgium can have 6 wholly independent governments (which overlap for certain matters), 3 official native languages (dutch, french and german), 9 provincial 'rulers' (of whom nobody really seems to know what they are responsible for) and a whole lot of local governments who have some powers that trump the higher governments in certain local affairs. Oh yeah and we have a king as well.

It really was not my intention to insult anyone, and perhaps it would have been a good idea to make my original post a bit more verbose.
In any case, it is past 23:00 now and my brain is having trouble focusing.

I really hope that the people who already knew me don't hold this against me. No offense was intended. I think should stop now because I am so tired that my brain feels like I am thinking through layers of candy floss. I think I managed to explain what I meant to say originally.
goodnight.

I took no offense, Bruno - don't want you to think that at all. It is cool, you have the right, neigh the duty, to express your understanding and convictions.

As far as Bush, in the last election it had more to do with the choice of the lesser of two evils, again in my opinion. It also had to do with the mobilization of a very very vocal and rabid minority that actually got out and voted in an organized, well-funded and well support way. Many of those people who supported Bush are feeling pretty much forgotten, as they believe that he has been too liberal!

9/11 changed a lot of things, many for the worse. Supporting torture? Maybe, but I have to tell you that I bet that those boys down in Cuba would rather deal with our loud music and threats of flushing the Koran any day compared to how the government in Afghanistan or Kuwait, Yemen or Turkey would deal with them? Would make our stupid forces taking pictures of them in naked pyramids look downright fun in comparison. But that is neither here nor there; do we all agree with what is happening, absolutely not - and I would prefer to keep that boy home, trust me. But just like that soldier may not know what he is fighting for, the "more civilized" European community may not have all the facts and know how we feel about things either, you know?

The state that I live in is larger than France, think about that for a second. Texas gross domestic product alone I think would place it in the top ten countries in the world, if it were a country. I personally cannot see how in the world a government like the Belgium government you describe would ever get anything done. It is very magnanimous and fair and enlightened, no doubt - and sounds like one big potential clusterf*&%^. Kind of like the how many parties in the Italian parliament? So yes, you are right - we are very different, but at the end of the day, you probably like a cold beer in peace with friends planning an outing for the weekend without some deranged nut flying a plane into your building, right? Well so do we brother. Where do we draw that line, I don't know - if I did I would spontaneously combust and arrive at a higher plane of consciousness. That would be a kicker.

Anyways, get some sleep - no worries. We will look out for you, and even those folks that want to blow us to bits, hallelujah. Holy Handgrenade anyone? I am tired too, and I am going home.

K

Yep --no big deal Bruno ---I would have it no other way that you express your ideals and ideas ---just thought you might appreciate knowing if you might be crossing some invisible line ---not that you do not have the right to cross that line but it might cause some issues on a nice forum like this ----otherwise speak loud and clear----

Take it easy Bruno.

Justin

What they said!!

Mark Avery

Thanks guys.
On a personal level we are all pretty much alike probably. I do like a cold beer on a hot day as well.
Hopefully I get to visit the states again in the near future, and we can have a cold brewsky together.
You know what? I'll even bring along some of our Belgian beer.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Maybe statements like : "and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth" cause some confusion when talking about American government. But I believe the Founding Fatheres when looking upon the Greeks /Romans for infuence wanted to stray away from pure forms of democracy ---so in a sense didn't believe in true government by the people but by elected representatives. I think it's funny how people come out with polls showing the unpopularity of the President,etc and say government policies should change accordingly ---- I think this is what the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid ----wait until the next election and vote in a new bunch but meanwhile , hands off to the masses. I think they got it right.


Justin

Sorry, those lines are from Nov 19, 1863 and were spoken by Abe Lincoln.

Rick