Thread: Apple's stand against the Feds

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Kind of a weird situation

It is a County owned phone
There is a Court order to open it so there is nothing stopping the FBI from opening it

Now just because they can't manage that using their own initiative and abilities or perhaps refuse to even try ??? How does that become Apple's (or anyone else) legal responsibility to do so...

The Government can ask, (and have in the past) but I don't see the leap to be able to legally compel a private company to provide it's expertise..

Perhaps the County should have had a "Master Key " for their phones


Guess this one will work it's way through court

So, it the taxpayers phone.

Unfortunately it is fully possible for them to pull it out of their ass in short order. As they are being asked to remove very specific features, which if their SD process is as should be, will be relatively easy for them to get to.

Also as pedantic as it sounds, the FBI aren't asking for a "back door" they're asking for the ability to try to brute force it, as Apple's current security software will erase the phone after a number of tries. If Apple could provide an actual back door into their encryption I would be more worried about apples dev practices and what you entrust to them.

It's a fair bet they'll buckle. Which would be a sad day for privacy. But that's the world today.

Geek

Lots of great points being made here. I think it's a slippery slope leading to a steep, ice-covered cliff. Maybe it's a separate issue, but one of the only bulwarks we have against the encroaching police state is the 4th amendment that is ignored more and more at all levels by FISA court abuses, secret police "Stingrays," the massive increase in "no-knock" full swat-team raids for minor offenses (in which many innocent people have been injured or killed), warrantless personal and car searches on no pc or pretext whatsoever (which I have personally witnessed), etc.

Normally I'd be the 1st one to rail against the power of a mega-corporation like Apple (probably on my ipad or iphone, lol), but given all that is potentially at stake, this seems like a major government overreach.

I really cannot believe the amount of doublespeak in this thread. Your Government department has made a very credible request for Apple to enable them to access data on a single phone without that single phone erasing records automatically.

That's it - end of story. Apple has been assured that they will not have to divulge how they did it and they can demand any other assurances they want. It will not apply to other phones and the phone in question will remain in their possession.

What else do you need? It seems to me that 9/11 rocked America to it's roots and you have still not recovered the sense of the nation that you were and still are. All this talk of privacy is nonsense - we all accept that the government can and will listen into conversations if it thinks it necessary. What is at issue here is an attempt to listen into previous conversations of a known terrorist - they were not alone.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

A lot of what ifs there.

Terrorists don't have to go at these lengths to accomplish their aims. Right now they can hack into your car and send it into a wall while you're on the freeway. A terrorist can enter the U.S with a french passport and travel to a gunshow and buy an arsenal and mow down folks by the hundreds in a mall on a Sunday. It's probably easier to make a dirty bomb and detonate it in some European capital.

It's all about low tech and using what works and is easy.

Of course it's a lot of "what ifs"... It hasn't happened yet, everything about it is speculation, including the FBI's rationale: "IF you get us access to the encrypted data & IF there is incriminating evidence in it and IF it can be tracked to other contacts and IF further investigation makes us suspicious that they helped or also have bad intentions and IF we then catch them with incriminating proof we MIGHT prevent another POTENTIAL attack and MIGHT save lives". See? It's all IFs, MAYBEs, and MAYBE NOTs from either side. What IS certain is that IF this software exists, it would carry tremendous power, both for "good" sources and definitely for bad ones. Right now the FBI/warrant might be satisfied with the software being written and simply the unencrypted data being handed over (maybe, depends how you interpret the wording) but you can bet your beans that immediately after handing over the data the FBI/NSA/CIA are going to demand the software and another court order will be presented stating the software exists and MUST be handed over without details regarding its use "because it's classified/for national security". And if the US cane demand it, then why can't other countries?

Originally Posted by Scareface

Apple has hacked into phones for the Feds before!

It seems it's okay for them to do it when it fits their agenda...money wise and politically!

This time it's political........don't offend The "O's" chosen people!


Just throwing in a loop for topics sake.

Previously the encryption was software based only and the encryption keys were held by Apple, so on previous occasions when a court order was presented Apple had to comply. That's exactly WHY Apple has now made the encryption software AND hardware based with the ONLY encryption keys being held in the "secure enclave" in every device every single one of which is unique and the keys are NOT kept by Apple... That's exactly WHY the FBI is now demanding this new software be written to bypass those new measures of security, because right now Apple CAN'T comply with court orders to simply hand over the information and why if you forget your password Apple can't help you and you have to get a new device and start over.

Ever considered you may be over thinking things? If not, have you ever considered using paragraphs? There's a very good reason that they exist.

And please stop shouting out your capitals, it makes for very difficult reading and makes you come across as opinionated.

Some on this thread have suggested that the government likely already have found a way to hack the encryption. I decided to discuss this possibility with a PHD Mathematician friend of mine. We had a fun discussion after which he was intrigued enough to do a little research and sent me the following. I though the members here may find this interesting.

They either have an existing algorithm that allows them immediate access or they try to brute force it. Good luck brute forcing 256bit AES encryption with SHA-1 hashing. With 50 super computers, it will take approximately 3.31 x 10 to the power of 56 years. To put that in perspective, if everyone had 10 computers (7 billion people), and each could test 1 billion key combinations a second, and you could crack with 50% of the possible keys, it would still take 77,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

Funny or what !!!!!

Not really,,,, thank your friend for his time.

Originally Posted by Scareface

So, it the taxpayers phone.

That is my understanding,, It was His county issued I-Phone

So yes it is the County Governments property, assuming the news reports were true

Maybe just maybe I could see a court order sticking if the Phone was an Apple Lease and they still "Owned" the phone but I just can't see a private company being legally compelled to do work for the government.. That just doesn't seem "Kosher" to me...