Thread: UK out of EU

Originally Posted by gugi

Direct democracy a.k.a. doing things the way people want is significantly worse than representative democracy.

I absolutely agree with this if you mean direct democracy as in "mob rules". We have a quasi-direct democracy in the form of public opinion driven by the media and the media's influence over the easily manipulated resulting in reactionary and emotionally driven decision making. Banning of the confederate flag in public places recently would be an example of a reactionary decision from a seemingly direct democracy.

A direct democracy ie, "mob rules" isn't good for anything unless you're a Black Sabbath fan.

Chris L

Simply put across the civilized world and obviously here on SRP it looks as though there is the never ending argument of More Government vs Less Government

I will never change my mind that Less is better


So have a good Independence Day Weekend if you are in the US and hopefully the Brexit Independence goes well also

But I am out

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Simply put across the civilized world and obviously here on SRP it looks as though there is the never ending argument of More Government vs Less Government

Not really, this more vs. less government dichotomy is almost exclusively conservative-USA driven paradigm.

It is an oversimplification of the problem in order to draw clear ideological line and make lower socioeconomic groups in places like WV and MS support policies that disproportionately benefit higher socioeconomic groups in places like NY and CA.

Originally Posted by gugi

Not really, this more vs. less government dichotomy is almost exclusively conservative-USA driven paradigm.

Scrap the "almost exclusively" bit. You cannot - for now - compare Europe to the US.

Full disclosure: I am a conservative. I loved Margaret Thatcher, and Ronald Reagan. Thatcher, because she made the UK join the EU. As an aside, and to put that National Review nonsense to a rest, because the aim of the EU was to keep France, Germany, and yes, Britain, from going to war again.

Reagan because he made German unification possible.

Glen, I love you, but that "you never lived here, so I don't want you opinion" thing will not work. I have lived in the US, the UK, and Europe.

I will not comment - for now - on the "less vs more government" in the US. This is not the right thread for this.

But the Leave.EU campaign made a generic, emotional offer. The remain campaign made a facts based, political offer.

Unfortunately, generical offers always win over facts based, political offers.

In the UK, that means that the three central lies ("stop immigration", "GPP 350 per week for the NHS", and "take back control") were just that. Lies. Spewed forth by Oxbridge educated toffs. And these lies fell apart minutes, or seconds, after the referendum resulted in a "pro lies" victory.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Simply put across the civilized world and obviously here on SRP it looks as though there is the never ending argument of More Government vs Less Government

I will never change my mind that Less is better

That is exactly the point these days. I agree with this. Right - left is a bit yesterday these days. It is rather conservatism - liberalism.

What happens in UK next, or whitin next years is something nobody can say yet.
Will they get to decide more on their own business or will there be just another bureucrat or politician making decisions for them.
I really really hope everything goes as they were promised. If not, then it is just another Orwell animal farm we are witnessing.

Originally Posted by Sailor

That is exactly the point these days. I agree with this. Right - left is a bit yesterday these days. It is rather conservatism - liberalism.

Conservatism is to the right of center and liberalism is to the left of center in the political spectrum. The farther away you get from the Golden Mean on either side of the political spectrum the wackier things/people get. I don't think much has changed in that respect.

Bob

Originally Posted by Sailor

Will they get to decide more on their own business or will there be just another bureucrat or politician making decisions for them.

Sincere apologies, but as a citizen of a country that has enjoyed not one but two totalitarian dictatorships in the last century, I feel obliged to inform you that your comment reflects badly on your appreciation of democracy. You ought to be ashamed of it.

Originally Posted by Sailor

I really really hope everything goes as they were promised. If not, then it is just another Orwell animal farm we are witnessing.

And that is even more absurd. For your information, Orwell, a democratic socialist, was a critic of Joseph Stalin and hostile to Moscow-directed Stalinism, an attitude that was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War. Orwell is most definitely not the person you want to quote in this context. Orwell would have been immensely proud of what the EU has achieved, ie guarantee peace, and bring democracy and prosperity to many of its member states.

The fact that major parts of the UK do not enjoy the same economic success as the aforementioned member states is mostly a direct result of its inability to reform its production sector. The few counterexamples that exist are owned by Indians, or Germans. That, and the Tories' failure to reform the education sector, resulting in an army of working poor: undereducated, and essentially redundant in a modern industrial society.

Originally Posted by BobH

Conservatism is to the right of center and liberalism is to the left of center in the political spectrum. The farther away you get from the Golden Mean on either side of the political spectrum the wackier things/people get. I don't think much has changed in that respect.

That is one way of looking at it. I personally have never quite liked it. Its conventional linear left-right continuum system fails to adequately explain Siamese twin ideologies like Fascism (Italy, Hungary)/Socialism (GDR), and Communism (the Lenin/Stalin variety)/National Socialism.

I come from a conservative school of thought, and have found the later instalments of the theory of totalitarianism quite useful.

The Pournelle chart is quite useful if you want to analyse the current US political system, I think. Because comparing eg Merkel style Conservatives, and Trump style Republicans yields no useful results (other than "Merkel is a Socialist dictator", or "Trump is a fascistoid dictator in the making", none of which are quite accurate in my opinion).

Originally Posted by BobH

Conservatism is to the right of center and liberalism is to the left of center in the political spectrum. The farther away you get from the Golden Mean on either side of the political spectrum the wackier things/people get. I don't think much has changed in that respect.

Bob

That is how different we people seem to look things in different places.
Here liberalism is out of the left-right context but might be everything against it as well. I consider myself as liberal right. Surely no left but not much conservative either. Might be that somewhere else i might have a label with different name.

But that is why forums like SRP are so great. Gives a change to learn more on world and people there.

Originally Posted by RobinK

And that is even more absurd. For your information, Orwell, a democratic socialist, was a critic of Joseph Stalin and hostile to Moscow-directed Stalinism, an attitude that was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War. Orwell is most definitely not the person you want to quote in this context. Orwell would have been immensely proud of what the EU has achieved, ie guarantee peace, and bring democracy and prosperity to many of its member states.

The fact that major parts of the UK do not enjoy the same economic success as the aforementioned member states is mostly a direct result of its inability to reform its production sector. The few counterexamples that exist are owned by Indians, or Germans. That, and the Tories' failure to reform the education sector, resulting in an army of working poor: undereducated, and essentially redundant in a modern industrial society.

Guess i put my words badly. Might be my English. Or then you misread my words.
One of the promises those pro-exit leaders gave was that people get to decide more on their own life and things outside EU.
Personally i am very pessimistic with promises like this but of course i hope i am badly wrong.

I do not personally care if the decisions are made in Bruxells or my capitol as long as the decisions are good. The history, both here and surely in Germany too have given a lesson that the decisions made by own emperor aren't necessary better but might be worse as well. Those decisions made in our own capitol or by some local bureucrat are for some reason called the ones 'we decide by ourselves' in political propaganda and that is most absurd. When the local decisions are bad they blame on Union.

Personally i see that the Union has given us such liberties and freedoms that didn't exist or were even banned at the times before membership. No local bureucrat or politician can take them away, even if they wanted to.
Of course those things do not come free but it has been up to individual states to make things so that as many people can use to change to work for it. Now some of the member states have bit failed and they blame on Union. I think both my country and Germany have done well.

Originally Posted by RobinK

That is one way of looking at it. I personally have never quite liked it. Its conventional linear left-right continuum system fails to adequately explain Siamese twin ideologies like Fascism (Italy, Hungary)/Socialism (GDR), and Communism (the Lenin/Stalin variety)/National Socialism.

I come from a conservative school of thought, and have found the later instalments of the theory of totalitarianism quite useful.

The Pournelle chart is quite useful if you want to analyse the current US political system, I think. Because comparing eg Merkel style Conservatives, and Trump style Republicans yields no useful results (other than "Merkel is a Socialist dictator", or "Trump is a fascistoid dictator in the making", none of which are quite accurate in my opinion).

That is the strange part about dictatorships, no matter how you arrive at them they all amount to about the same thing for those trapped in them. They can be arrived at from either end of the political spectrum. Personally I do not adhere to either strictly conservative or liberal views. I believe that most people who can think for themselves don't either. It is some combination of the 2 that usually provides the best result in satisfying the needs of the majority of a particular population.

That combination varies by country depending on what that population thinks at any given time. On a personal level it is like shaving in that there is no single best ways to do things. There is only what works best for you and you are happy with the results.

Bob