Thread: What Teachers Make

Originally Posted by jockeys

... the whole idea of this thread (I thought) was that the public system is NOT educating people adequately!

Well, actually my point was to praise the passion and importance of good teachers and good teaching.

Originally Posted by jockeys

in the end, would my proposed system leave some kids out? prolly so. but that seems preferable to giving everyone a bad/mediocre education just for the sake of being "fair" when in fact there is nothing fair about how it is paid for. the current method of punishing the successful so that the unsuccessful don't feel left out is ludicrous.

I submit that you are mistaken about why bad educations are received in your country. I believe it is not because precious resources are squandered on the undeserving, but because there is a willful effort on the part of a very wealthy, very powerful few to keep the very poor, very numerous subservients ignorant and docile. After all, the best education systems in the world are very socialised.

X

Private or public, rich or poor does not really matter...it is how the value of education is perceived in the family. I have dealt with the off-spring of wealthy families who were as dumb as a bag of hair, but were pushed through the system because of who daddy is (think a bit...some names will come to mind...) and others who came from poor-to-middle class families who were brilliant and will be the brightest hope for this nation. The key is how education is valued and that there is opportunity. The issue is not "robbing the rich" to educate the lazy poor....the issue is lowering standards - regardless of location or economic strata - so non-performers don't have their feelings hurt. I'm sure there are just as many dumb jocks, stoners, half-wits, and general losers who have parents with big bank accounts as there are riding mass transit and living check to check.

Opportunity for all - to succeed or fail according to the same merit-based standards - not standardized testing. Basics must be taught - the same basics that have been taught since mankind learned to learn: math, sciences, art, history, ethics, civics, rhetoric (I'm tired of leaders who can't string together a coherent sentence - here, take a hand full of pebbles - good enough for Demosthenes, good enough for you!), penmanship (yes, we live in a computer age, but if I can't read the sticky you put on my screen, what's the point?), languages (including English).

Parents must support the schools and the teachers. You don't show up to meet with a teacher - no sports for your kid. Your kid threatens a teacher - out. You threaten a teacher - a visit from the police. Pretty soon, the punk kid with the punk parents will find trying to get Biff, jr. an education a pretty hard thing, unless both behave.

Also, the "stigma" associated with vocational schools needs to be removed....this nation was built on manual labor, but some how, the American dream got interpreted as being: if you earn a living by sitting on your ass, you are a success. Not everyone is wired to be a corporate type...there are many talented people who are not encouraged to use their skills because manual labor is viewed as "low". (My generation in my family are the first ones not farming).

Standards for teachers - annual testing in their areas of expertise, with raises for those who excel. The good teachers would do well, the slackers would be gone.

Sports treated as it is named "extracurricular" - meaning after the studies. Susy is not doing well in Math? Bouncing up and down waving pom-poms is not going to help. Little Stevie still can't spell? Time after school in remediation, not on the fields.
Before the jocks get all bent out of shape - the same rules would apply to any non-curriculum related activity.

We are moving into a generation of people who should not have had kids with kids who are now having kids - and shouldn't - Shallow, self-centered parents are consumed with having successful kids - as a mark of their own success or to offset their own insecurities. They are producing hordes of selfish, lazy, ignorant, manipulative offspring, where being dumb is cool. They are told by their parents that they are special and gifted, followed by the parent giving them a handful of drugs so their "hyperactivity" will not disturb mommy and daddy...because we're busy validating our needs. I've run into so many parents who should have gotten a fern instead of having a kid...and in the end, the kid ends up about as useful as a fern.

It all seems to be about show - Does anyone give a damn if your kid is an honor student? I want a bumper sticker that says "My kid helps the elderly" or "My kid works a 20 hour week after school"; parents who are not capable of teaching their kids as part of their school education. Here's a bumper sticker I'd like to see "I check my kid's homework for accuracy".

The goal of education is not just to get a job. It is to provide for your family and to contribute to the body politic, to build the nation; to stand as an example to your children and your community; to expand your mind in hopes that you can elevate others; to carry on the traditions of your culture, your nation, and those of mankind as a whole. The job is important, but it is not the whole purpose of education. Is the work honest? Does it feed your family? Are you not a willing burden to the taxpayers?

I would love to see a school where all the rules are laid out up front, including parental participation. You don't like it? Then your kids doesn't go here.

My favorite bumper sticker: My kid got your honor student pregnant

Originally Posted by WireBeard

The goal of education is not just to get a job. It is to provide for your family and to contribute to the body politic, to build the nation; to stand as an example to your children and your community; to expand your mind in hopes that you can elevate others; to carry on the traditions of your culture, your nation, and those of mankind as a whole. The job is important, but it is not the whole purpose of education. Is the work honest? Does it feed your family? Are you not a willing burden to the taxpayers?

Thanks, Wirebeard. Well said.

I will object to one point. I'm a proponent of multiple intelligence theory so agree with having physical education and art as part of a well rounded education. I'm sure we'll agree however, that the obsession with achievement through the school sports team is given way too much attention.

X

Originally Posted by xman

Thanks, Wirebeard. Well said.

I will object to one point. I'm a proponent of multiple intelligence theory so agree with having physical education and art as part of a well rounded education. I'm sure we'll agree however, that the obsession with achievement through the school sports team is given way too much attention.

X

I have no problem with Phys Ed. I am talking about the cult of sports and taking time from studies for team sports training. Phys Ed every day is a good thing - I should have done more - but letting kids out of class so they can make practice or pressuring teachers to change grades so Biff, Jr. can play in the big game is ludicrous. Think of all the improvements to books, technology, facilities, etc. that could be made if the money spent on sports equipment, travel, salaries, facilities were made available. That's one reason I like the German system - you are in school to learn, not play. You want to participate in a sports team? Do it after school, on your own time, at your own cost.

If the US system had been based on the Continental model instead of on the British model, the topic would be moot.

There is a university here in Denver called Regis. Their commercials are funny: they list all the Internationally renown scholars, business leaders, scientists, Nobel Prize winners, etc. who have graduated from the schools....and then they finish with "and all without a football team."

I have heard the arguments that if the kid is good in sports, he can get a scholarship and then go pro. I have never understood why that is better than getting a scholarship for being, well...a scholar. If the kid can't make grades to get an academic scholarship, why are we polluting the colleges with athletes who are there just because of a sport? If the kid wants to go pro, then the pro teams should set up training camps for these people and train them to become pro athletes...no issue with those pesky books are grade point averages. It could be termed a sports vocational school. Let the teams fund it (versus extorting tax dollars from cities as they have been doing to build stadiums...that money should have come from the players and owners....You want a nicer place to play? You pay for it).

In general, I think we need more vocational higher education institutions (ala DeVry and ITT), where a persons natural talents for a job related skill is enhanced with good academic curricula. This would be great for the kids who want to do as well as learn. Some schools in New York City have switched over to this model - one example being a Culinary High School, where they learn to cook in addition to math, science, etc. The same could even be done for sports...send all the jocks to a few schools - they can play against each other in "the big game", but also learn academic skills that could get them into college and make them a well-rounded person. These schools could even be feeder schools for professional teams' training centers, if college is not one the kid's agenda. It may be great to go to college and get a degree or two, but when you car is sputtering, it's the kid who was looked down upon and not encouraged who will be taking apart your fuel injection system.

The Ford Mechanical Sciences Institute
The Lockeed School for Aeronautical Maintenance
The Lowes School for Construction Management
The Kohler Institute of Plumbing

The National League Academy of Sport Sciences
The NFL Divisional Training Institutes

Originally Posted by jockeys

not really. I am merely trying to point out that the current system robs the rich to teach the poor, but doesn't really do a good job teaching the rich OR the poor. you say we benefit from the educated people we deal with daily... the whole idea of this thread (I thought) was that the public system is NOT educating people adequately!

as to the poor man's brilliant son: he could try what I did. I went to a private university that I definitely could not afford. my folks didn't give me money for it, so I worked my butt off, applied for scholarships, and eventually got a full ride. (one of 2 given) the poor kid may have to work harder for it, but he's got the chance, and that's about as fair as life is ever going to get.

in the end, would my proposed system leave some kids out? prolly so. but that seems preferable to giving everyone a bad/mediocre education just for the sake of being "fair" when in fact there is nothing fair about how it is paid for. the current method of punishing the successful so that the unsuccessful don't feel left out is ludicrous.

You know, at first this struck a cord with me, because my family does in fact make enough money to send me to school if I were in a situation where public schooling does not exist. And in some cases I empathize with your feelings. But here's a little story

What do you think of "Affirmative Action"? At first I thought it was thoroughly racist and was disgusted when it was applied to me: I'm a "visual minority" living in Canada. Now the difference between me and others is that I'm a first/second generation immigrant.

Okay digression aside, the poorest people within your country were once oppressed right? You know that after WW2 a lot of subsidized housing was made available for veterans and mortgage/loans, however the visual minorities were left out of this promotion of the vets. What does property net over time? It becomes capital. So here you have white veterans who becomes more and more affluent and rich, and others who served the country who got squat all. How can you measure the economic potential that was deprived to those?

The lack of property, perhaps not being able to send their children to proper school, these things can adversely affect the potential future income, and thus puts them in a very low margin life where it would be essentially impossible to break free from.

/endrant

In terms of sport jocks and the likes. I'm also a proponent of multiple intelligence, otherwise I wouldn't be able to rationalize my poor scores in the hard sciences...

That aside, this is a big problem in NA. The problem being is that if you look at the numbers, females are surpassing men in the educational realm. Here in Canada there's already something like a 60/40 split once you reach the University level. In my experience we don't promote dumb jocks where I live, if anything most of our jocks are "smart jocks" and if anything is admirable and something that should be strived for: example the Allouettes, the Quebec football team for the CFL, is composed of players who have Bachelors degrees or better and the top end Salary is no more than 200,000$. That's not peanuts, but it's also not something you can accrue a lifetime savings within the few years you're fit enough to play the sport. Some are engineers, others are business men, all love football, but they have plans for when their bones no longer carry them.

I'm physically diminutive which puts be at disadvantage at most sports. While some people could chalk it up to "survival of the fittest" they seem to forget that fittest does not mean best, it means adaptability to reproduce... After all we beat out the Neanderthals which were physically stronger than our ancestors, of course it's also a possibility they merged into our line: depending on which branch of evolutionary theory you believe in, if at all.