Thread: Transgender Weightlifter Killing it

Originally Posted by ChrisL

Society's new view regarding transgender and sexual identity is so new that I'm sure it will evolve. Case in point, the very topic of this thread, transgenders and competitive sports is a conundrum to be sure:

Current/common way of thinking seems to be: a transgender person declaring they are the opposite sex should be regarded in all ways as such (e.g. pronoun references as their declared identity, changing sex on legal documents to declared sex, using declared sex bathrooms/locker rooms, etc) In effect, no difference than biological persons of the declared sex. Treated as and regarded as....the same in all respects.

Competitive sports: Acknowledgement by many as to the fact that biologically men and women are different and can in many sports give a biological male and by extension, a biological male declaring himself female, advantages. Advantages which some argue should prevent transgender male to female from competing with biological women. Or, create a different class in sports altogether, a transgender category (I doubt transgenders would like that idea).

Unless society embraces in totality the concept of perceived sexual identity being no different than biological identity without restriction including in competitive sports and instead has a same in nearly all respects but different in some respects related to biology (ie sports) wouldn't we as society be simply pretending or adopting fantasy as reality?

That's why I just don't think you can have it one way (transgenders are the same as biologicals they identify with) but then not another (but not the same in the case of.......).

I see your point, and it's a very central one. It lays bare the two realities (that you call biological and subjective) of someone feeling/knowing one way that directly opposes what they are biologically.

I agree that an either/or solution would be the clearest for society at large. However, it is not that black and white. I would think transgender people are fully (and probably painfully) aware of biological differences.

Even though in general they aim to be recognised as male/female (and some as neither), some present themselves as 'transgender men/women'. Now I don't know if that is for awareness purposes rather than personal identity purposes.

Regarding competitive sports, there are tests and standards based on testosterone levels, which are constantly being revised and tweaked.

It's not an easy issue, and there is no easy solution. Brushing it off as nonsense or stating it's an either/or situation doesn't resolve the situation. And the situation is how society regards transgender people , not merely in what division they compete in in competitive sports.

And they are real people with real people issues - how trying to solve personal issues makes you an egotistical "me, me, me" person is beyond me.

And just a general, very personal opinion: if the "normal" segment of society is the standard by which we measure "how silly people look" and what is "right", I sure hope I don't belong to the "normal" segment.

I for one, don't put sports on the same pedestal society at large does. I can enjoy watching and doing sports, but it's not that big of a deal (institution) to me.

Best regards,

Pieter

Oh, and if all threads would be closed as soon as they would have run their course on this forum, there would be very few threads running beyond two pages. Just sayin'.

All prejudices re. transgenders apart. The question here is: do transgenders whose muscles developed under the influence of testosterone qualify as females as soon as they are castrated and start using oestrogen hormone replacement therapy.
We all know that muscles develop differently in men and women. This pubertal muscle development is not reversed by the use of oestrogens.
So I wonder how right it is that transgenders qualify as female in sports.

And this stands apart from the question how society should deal with their new gender. E.g. whether their passports and other legal documents should be changed according to their new gender.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Oh, and if all threads would be closed as soon as they would have run their course on this forum, there would be very few threads running beyond two pages. Just sayin'.

You have been here long enough to know that subjective threads frequently get derailed and things get heated. I think this is one of them.
I am offended because I think this is someone from my own country trying to use the rules to their own advantage. To gain recognition, no matter the cost.
One thing you are missing here, sport is not sport anymore, it's business.
Which reminds me of the evening when I lost a game of table tennis to the second best female competitor in New Zealand.. Don't remember the score, will never forget that night...[emoji7]


Sent from a moto x far far away

Originally Posted by Grazor

You have been here long enough to know that subjective threads frequently get derailed and things get heated. I think this is one of them.
I am offended because I think this is someone from my own country trying to use the rules to their own advantage. To gain recognition, no matter the cost.
One thing you are missing here, sport is not sport anymore, it's business.
Which reminds me of the evening when I lost a game of table tennis to the second best female competitor in New Zealand.. Don't remember the score, will never forget that night...[emoji7]


Sent from a moto x far far away

So far I don't see this discussion as being heated, it has been quite gentlemanly in my view.

And the rules are what they are, someone used the rules in place to their advantage. Which propels discussion on said rules, which propels further tuning of said rules. Which, in the end, are meant to make things clearer and more fair for everyone involved. Transgenderism(?) is a real thing happening that we, as a society and individuals, have to deal with.

That being said, I'm not so sure that the person in question here decided to change their gender just to be able to win. That would seem very extreme to me (a competitive streak bordering on insane), also because it would certainly result in a lot of flack, even if sports would not have been in play.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Oh, and if all threads would be closed as soon as they would have run their course on this forum, there would be very few threads running beyond two pages. Just sayin'.

And I hate that expression (your last sentence) so much that I think its use should justify the closing of any thread, as well as the temporary banning of the person who "just said" it.

Using the rules to your own advantage doesn't always make it right if there is financial gain, or fame involved.
Performance enhancing drugs have been long banned, this seems to be the rules reversed.
I agree, it borders on insanity. The point you are missing, this is the extremes that some will go to win.
A failed male weight lifter at age 34 decides to switch gender?
At best this human is a narcissist.


Sent from a moto x far far away

Originally Posted by Grazor

Using the rules to your own advantage doesn't always make it right if there is financial gain, or fame involved.
Performance enhancing drugs have been long banned, this seems to be the rules reversed.
I agree, it borders on insanity. The point you are missing, this is the extremes that some will go to win.
A failed male weight lifter at age 34 decides to switch gender?
At best this human is a narcissist.


Sent from a moto x far far away

That's why competition rules are heading towards measuring/taking into account testosterone levels.

And the reasons for this particular person to officially change gender can only be speculation at best.

There are people who officially change gender well into their fifties, like a Lutheran priest did in Finland - resulting in lots of flack and natiowide discussion. The Lutheran church allows for female priests, by the way. But that is a completely different discussion.

My point is that this is a discussion that needs to be had, and just posing 'But male genetics, man' to 'But legally they are women now, man' is not much of a discussion; it's a stalemate. And that will get the issue nowhere closer to being resolved into a workable solution.

Cases like this fuel these discussions and development, brushing them aside is not a viable option. Like I said, transgenderism is real and needs to be given a place in society. Man, woman or inbetween, they're still people.

And how is Laurel Hubbard a narcissist at best?

Best regards,

Pieter

Originally Posted by Pithor

And how is Laurel Hubbard a narcissist at best?

Call it a gut feeling, but a little more research...

Wealthy New Zealander Gavin Hubbard, now calling himself “Laurel”, bumped two women from their Olympic weightlifting qualifying slots after he decided to compete in the women’s category. Hubbard is the son of cereal magnate and former Auckland mayor Dick Hubbard, best known for his position against allowing gay people to marry or raise their own biological children.
Gavin “Laurel” Hubbard, 39, was a one-time nationally ranked weightlifter in his twenties but he failed to make his mark competing against other males. He remained active in the sport, funding various events and serving as the Executive Officer of OWNZ (Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand) until his position was eliminated last year.

Hubbard responded to the loss of his authority by funding a new state-of-the-art weightlifting facility to host and sponsor the OWNZ competition itself.
OWNZ then authorised the women’s competition that Hubbard won on Sunday March 19 at the Australasian Championships in Melbourne.
OWNZ cited IOC guidelines for transgenderism, which allow any male who can prove his testosterone levels are 10 nmol/L or below for one year duration to compete in the women’s division. Any female can compete in the male category if she qualifies regardless of her hormone levels. No female athlete has ever qualified to compete against males under IOC guidelines. Female athletes that outperform males in male events (example: high jump skiing) have not been allowed to compete.
When it became known that Hubbard intended to destroy the ranking of female New Zealand Olympian Tracey Lambrechs [Rio 2016) by competing as a male in the women’s 90k+ category, Ms. Lambrechs immediately set her sites on competing against other women by the only means left available to her: qualifying for another weight category away from men.
This involved rapidly losing 38 pounds in order to compete in the nearest woman-only class.

“It was a big shock,” Lambrechs told Radio Sport [on March 4]. “At first I was quite angry and then confused and upset.

“I was taken aback when it first happened but I have no control over anything around me, so I’ve really just been focusing on myself and whatever happens happens.”

She said OWNZ had advised it would only select one competitor per weight division for the world championships.
The female Olympian somehow managed to shed the weight in time but under performed on Sunday as a result. “Obviously losing all that weight my body shape has changed and so my technique is a little bit clumsy at the moment”, Lambrechs had stated back on March 4. She came in second place after the rapid weight loss regimen, losing her qualifying ranking.

The new first place champion of the Australasian heavyweight women’s division, Samoan Luniara Sipaia, was also stripped of her title and ranking.
OWNZ sponsor and former Executive Officer, Laurel Hubbard, will take her place as women’s heavyweight champion...

So you can see there that Laurel Hubbard, OWNZ "sponsor" and former Executive Officer, has destroyed the chances of at least 2 female competitors of qualifying for the Olympics and undermined many other female athletes with no doubt more to come. It is obviously for personal gain, define Narcissist...

Originally Posted by MikeB52

They were gay, being attracted to the same sex. Bisexual, attracted to both. And straight, which was attraction to the opposite sex. That's it. Three choices, or really two with a large gray area in between really.
Now, it's LGBTQIA, which is a much larger acronym to ensure no one orientation is excluded from the inclusive desire that everyone's personal identity is equally valid. Don't offend any one group and all that PC nonsense.
That's incredibly self centric, and overly complicated.

I see where you're coming from, Mike. That acronym has fed my already existing strong dislike of acronyms, and I'm not even sure what all letters stand for. And indeed, some of the terms used can be confusing and perhaps unnecessarily specific. And continual offense is taken at almost every turn by some people with an overly activist mindset, long toes and usually a blog or two.

Most people in the queer scene I have talked to will gladly explain it without taking heaps of offense. That is, if they're sure on all current definitions. But loud borderline militant activists are, well, louder.

Originally Posted by Utopian

And I hate that expression (your last sentence) so much that I think its use should justify the closing of any thread, as well as the temporary banning of the person who "just said" it.

Agreed. The line must be drawn somewhere.

It truly is an awful phrase, I felt dirty when I typed it. I just felt it packed the right amount of douchey punch to the set-up in the same post

Originally Posted by Grazor

Call it a gut feeling, but a little more research... [...] It is obviously for personal gain, define Narcissist...

That does indeed smell fishy. Very fishy, if that is all true.

Best regards,

Pieter