Thread: Mans Intelligence

Originally Posted by JMS

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Originally Posted by JMS
[I][COLOR=Blue]Man, this thread eats me up! I am not sure a single person got what I was trying to say except maybe you!
There is something intangible that I can't seem to get across to my fellow man!
Each man is self absorbed until he matures, then he becomes thoughtful and self policing! I believe all governments. with the exception of the most minimalistic government, by their very nature stand in the way of this process. It doesn't serve the purpose of government to have self regulated individuals because then they would have little if any power. Man has a dual nature. government and other self serving individuals wish to bring out the lesser more selfish nature. I was trying to point out that we all have a greater or higher nature from which we all should strive to operate from!!

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I definitely agree. Government is a "one size fits all" institution by its very nature - there's a very fine balancing act between directing a nation at a group level yet allowing individual freedom, even if individuals are rational and self-policing (and act that way!), IMO.

And maybe this is my Economics degree flash-backing on me, but "rational" individuals, depending on their motivations, will exploit definitions and rules to their benefit. This in turn can highlight flaws in rules and reg.s leading to modifications and ammendments etc. etc. setting up an almost catch 22 scenario (or at least ironic) where, by acting rationally, we induce conditions that limit our abiity to act rationally and we end up as a "nanny state". And that's not even considering the completely irrational things some people can do - like thinking you can go make a cup of tea after you've put your Winnebago in cruise control in the middle of a freeway.... Well, that's my take on it anyway - I'm a bit hamstrung by my educational background, I think.

All I really know is that, even for the relatively short period I've been a mature adult (I think it kicked in last week ) I've been bombarded with what appears to be an exponentially increasing number of forms, rules, etc. to do anything - and it's an affront to your intelligence, or at least some of it is. Most public servants in Australia are apologetic about it if you point it out, but they still make you jump through the hoops.

James.

This is my original correspondence with Justin:
Quote:

Man, this thread eats me up! I am not sure a single person got what I was trying to say except maybe you!
There is something intangible that I can't seem to get across to my fellow man!
Each man is self absorbed until he matures, then he becomes thoughtful and self policing! I believe all governments. with the exception of the most minimalistic government, by their very nature stand in the way of this process. It doesn't serve the purpose of government to have self regulated individuals because then they would have little if any power. Man has a dual nature. government and other self serving individuals wish to bring out the lesser more selfish nature. I was trying to point out that we all have a greater or higher nature from which we all should strive to operate from!!

I hope I didn't bend your ear to badly?

Mark

No I appreciate and understand what you're saying --don't worry about ranting , I wish you would do it more.
What you're talking about is what it really means to be an American ---and it worries me that other Americans didn't get it. It took about three posts before the American blaming and criticizing started and took on a direction that you didn't intend (I think). I really don't think the Canadians and Europeans can understand ---I don't think they understand "give me liberty or give me death" and that governments that rule least rule best.
I won't give up my rights (inalienable) to be a human --for better or worse ---.

People or lazy and look for the lowest energy state and will give up personal responsibility to something they consider "holy" like a goverment even though it's made up of humans --just humans no better than them.

Justin[/I]

What I am talking about I believe is universal, but I am afraid you are right! It seems most humans are educated out of this universal understanding, and America,if we are not careful,is not too far behind the rest of the world!

Mark[/I]

Yep it's universal but it's a dying concept for sure.

Justin

Thanks James for your response:

To me what's the point in being regulated and protected if you never really live ?-- what are you saving yourself up for ?--- so you create some highly regulated safe little utopia -- what? --with the concept that you are going to live forever? Bullshit ---- it is all just a means of controlling people with a father knows best attitude. The rarest thing in this world is a true individual along with a government that protects the freedom of that individual -- even the freedom to do himself harm.

What Mark is talking about is such a rare and knew concept- a small government that is told what to do by the people and is non-intrusive --but it taps into what it really means to be a sentient human being ---- who's able to experience all things for better or worse and to regulate himself --- as in Mark is a one of kind creation who can only define himself through his self-regulating actions not by governments made of other humans --- why give other humans such power over you? -- do you think you're worth so little and are incapable or maybe you think others are incapable and worth little? Maybe this has more to do with how you assign value to a human being --- is he capable or not? --- is he a virus or a marvelous creation? No matter. I'll define myself anyhow.


Justin

Thank you Justin and Jimbo! Now we are getting somewhere!

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Thanks James for your response:

To me what's the point in being regulated and protected if you never really live ?-- what are you saving yourself up for ?--- so you create some highly regulated safe little utopia -- what? --with the concept that you are going to live forever? Bullshit ---- it is all just a means of controlling people with a father knows best attitude. The rarest thing in this world is a true individual along with a government that protects the freedom of that individual -- even the freedom to do himself harm.

What Mark is talking about is such a rare and knew concept- a small government that is told what to do by the people and is non-intrusive --but it taps into what it really means to be a sentient human being ---- who's able to experience all things for better or worse and to regulate himself --- as in Mark is a one of kind creation who can only define himself through his self-regulating actions not by governments made of other humans --- why give other humans such power over you? -- do you think you're worth so little and are incapable or maybe you think others are incapable and worth little? Maybe this has more to do with how you assign value to a human being --- is he capable or not? --- is he a virus or a marvelous creation? No matter. I'll define myself anyhow.


Justin

Justin,

I think I understand what you're saying. I agree with the idea of personal freedom and choice - it would be interesting to see what would happen (governmentally, I mean) if that principle was allowed a natural development. Actually, and I'm not trying to deliberately be a pratt here, I think there are some (or maybe a lot of) philosophical texts that deal with this - the French guy Michel Foucault did some interesting stuff on power that's probably pertinent.

But I wonder whether anything along those lines can happen with a democratically elected government - invariably people differ in views and attitudes, and if you're on the losing side in an election, democracy means you have to live with other people's ideas about how you're governed...is that too simplistic???

James.

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

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Originally Posted by JMS

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

This Belgian will post something in 1 hour and 15 minutes, because that is when his lunch break begins.

Ok then.

EDIT: Originally I wrote about why I want to bring specific things like healthcare / army / transportation / energy and environment under governmental control, but it was too much text and I think the following explains it better.

Most people who participated here already seem to think that tiny governments are best, and that most things should be managed by the people themselves.
this only works if 'The People' are responsible enough to do that.
But 'The People' usually aren't. Generally 'The People' are stupid, uninformed, gullible, greedy and small-minded.

This is true everywhere. I try to see things from all sides and act responsibly. But most people I see in daily life don't.
Responsible people would not drink and drive. Responsible people would not leave their baby unattended in the same room with a pitbull. Responsible people would buckle up their children in the car. Responsible people would not need to be told that an accusation of child molesting is not enough to execute someone on the spot...

It is a good thing that 'The People' are not wielding the actual power because it would end in mob rule.
Government officials are also people who are prone to the same problems, but with everything they do they live with the knowledge that we can strip them from their powers come next election day. (slightly off-topic, but this is another reason I like our multiparty system)

I don't think my government is ideal, and I don't think that corruption doesn't happen, but I prefer anything above direct rule by 'The People'.

If I come over as a cynic... It's because I am.
I strive to live responsibly, and I do my very best to raise my children responsibly, but until I can start believing that 'The People' can act responsibly as a group, I'll hold on to the government.

I've met 'The People' on several occasions and I did not like what I saw.

Originally Posted by JMS

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

Sure, I'll bite.

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Thanks James for your response:

To me what's the point in being regulated and protected if you never really live ?-- what are you saving yourself up for ?--- so you create some highly regulated safe little utopia -- what? --with the concept that you are going to live forever? Bullshit ---- it is all just a means of controlling people with a father knows best attitude. The rarest thing in this world is a true individual along with a government that protects the freedom of that individual -- even the freedom to do himself harm.

What Mark is talking about is such a rare and knew concept- a small government that is told what to do by the people and is non-intrusive --but it taps into what it really means to be a sentient human being ---- who's able to experience all things for better or worse and to regulate himself --- as in Mark is a one of kind creation who can only define himself through his self-regulating actions not by governments made of other humans --- why give other humans such power over you? -- do you think you're worth so little and are incapable or maybe you think others are incapable and worth little? Maybe this has more to do with how you assign value to a human being --- is he capable or not? --- is he a virus or a marvelous creation? No matter. I'll define myself anyhow.

I'm almost totally on side with this. My only addendum would be that government should not necessarily be small, just moved out of our way. If we're really going to make government support what it means to be human for all the excitement and foible that it is, it needs to do a slightly different job and exalt those who are down. We all benefit from having a strong society. A quick example: here in Vancouver, BC they cut funding to mental health institutes and we ended up with ballooning already massive homeless and addiction problems costing more in resources to deal with than if we had just kept the hospitals going. Thankfully the data is coming in on balancing the budget and, still being so close to the former situation, even the hawks are taking note. Education is another, perhaps the most important, aspect where government should play a large role IMO. Let scholastic merit alone and not wealth be the determining factor of who gets to go to the best schools. The list could go on. I guess what I'm saying is that because our governments are in our way doesn't mean we should make them smaller. I believe that if we do that, some other entity, be it a warlord culture, a corporate one or something else, will simply take its place. I agree with making government work for the people rather than vice versa.

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