Thread: Nazi SS monument in Canada

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

If it is a monument to slavery or genocide, never.

Yes, and that is why I find it shocking to see there is one in Canada. Begs the question, who in their right mind ever thought it was OK?

Bob

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

If it is a monument to slavery or genocide, never.

Our greatest Naval hero, Lord Nelson was opposed the the abolishment of slavery but he fought tooth and nail to make sure they had adequate food and sanitary provisions and by accounts his men loved him for it, does this mean we should desecrate his achievements?... I dont know, I'm not clever enough to put it all into context....

My view?

When you put up a monument it's to celebrate greatness of someone. If they have some flaws so be it and to apply modern standards to folks who lived in a society hundreds of years ago ain't right. It's a matter of balancing the good and the bad. Some guy who was a general and dealt in the slave trade should not have a monument but an ex president who had slaves is another story unless there is evidence of some really bad things he did.

Heavens knows what folks will think of us 150 years from now and what they will do.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Our greatest Naval hero, Lord Nelson was opposed the the abolishment of slavery but he fought tooth and nail to make sure they had adequate food and sanitary provisions and by accounts his men loved him for it, does this mean we should desecrate his achievements?... I dont know, I'm not clever enough to put it all into context....

I hear you, Mark-I have sat under Lord Nelson's massive statue in Trafalgar Square, and saw the great bronze monuments to Churchill (one of my great heroes, but often considered "problematic" in the current parlance by historians) and even Abraham Lincoln around Parliament Square when I was in London during the original earth-shaking Brexit vote back in June of '16. Talk about being overwhelmed by history. Coming up out of the Westminster tube station during that chaos of bullhorns, police and protests was pretty unbelievable, but that's another story. In the US even our most venerated founding statesmen such as Washington and Jefferson have come under attack during the current upheaval. As I always tell my students when I teach your countryman Dickens's A Tale of Two Cities, every social movement, no matter how justified and "pure" its motives might be, nearly always goes too far as it did in the French Revolution the novel chronicled that went way too far, and as we are now . And there are always current examples to share with students, as I am sure there will be more than ever this fall, whatever school looks like in a few weeks. I also always tell them that, even with characters in novels or real life who seem purely evil on the surface, "people are complicated." So is history IMO; so much of it depends on who's telling it and who's listening, no?

All that said, there should be no moral ambiguity when it comes to Nazism and its adherents. Both our countries suffered greatly to eliminate it from the earth as the evil scourge that it is, though sadly, it keeps coming back. (And your country held on despite grim odds largely thanks to Churchill's indomitable British tenacity, despite his "problematic" attitudes towards Indians and other indigenous peoples in its empire). I don't have any answers, either-not sure anyone does-we are in uncharted waters in what is clearly a historical hinge-point.

I am *far* from an expert in this, but I know the Ukrainian experience prior to, and during, the war was a really, really unusual one. Having been persecuted horribly by Stalinist policies, many Ukrainians saw the Nazis - as bizarre as this now sounds - as liberators. And so my understanding is that many Ukrainians look back at those who joined up as national heroes. The enemy of my enemy being my friend, and all that. This, in part at least, explained the desire to commemorate them in the first place.

That having been said... I find the notion of any monument to any aspect of Nazism to be absolutely abhorrent. I can't believe that it took an act of vandalism to bring its existence to our attention. And while I'm normally no fan of vandalism, at least now we know it's there and can work to have it removed. If that period in Ukrainian history is to be memorialized, I'd much rather see a monument in honour of those who suffered so terribly under both Soviet rule and German occupation.

Monuments tend to celebrate their subjects without context. We do not need monuments to the perpetrators of hatred, genocide, slavery, etc.

Yeah, Cangooner, that adds another point to my argument that people (and history) are "complicated." And Nelson's point about judging people 150 years later with 2020 eyes is also worth considering. "Context is everything" is another thing I say in class with controversial works especially. For example, I don't know how many have read Conrad's very controversial Heart of Darkness (which Apocalypse Now is a modern re-telling of, set in Vietnam). Though on one level it can be read as a screed against imperialism, it is also full of some pretty shocking racism. I had great success last year with it actually "teaching the controversy" in a very diverse class of 18 AP students, having them read Chinua Achebe's essay "Racism in Heart of Darkness" along with it and debating/arguing the question (which is the kind of writing they have to do in their essays for the AP exams anyway). The question always comes up regarding the validity of judging history like that with 21st century values. Honestly, after this summer, I'm not sure I can get away with doing this any more-we'll see.

edit: Another example like yours that I just thought of: the Afghan Mujahaideen (sp?) that we supported as heroes with stinger missiles and CIA advisors during their guerilla campaign against the Russian invasion in the 80's later became the Taliban after we abandoned them. We helped build the Japanese navy with US steel when they were fighting the Russians in their war, and we know how that ended up too. Same with supporting Saddam's Iraq in their 80's war with Iran. Like you said, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

But I still hate a damn Nazi.

I do not think that this monument/cenotaph to the 14th SS Division is in the same category as statues of historic figures who have done some things in their lives that are not right. None of us are perfect. That said I am not entirely sure what should be done about the statues of historic figures.

The monument/cenotaph in the linked article is to a military unit closely dedicate to the Nazi ideals. That should never have been erected under any circumstances post WWII. It was not right then or now and will never be right in the future. There really is no grey area as with those statues of historic figures.

Bob

A couple years ago there was a big ta-do about the confederate flag (not as big as now). Don't know if people feel the same about it now (things change fast) but we were visiting in the pan handle of Florida and our tour guide was Black. My uncle asked him how people felt about the flag and he commented that there seemed to be as many blacks who were against removing it as whites. We all view history differently.

Many of the drug cartels have adopted sports team’s logos, hats, and Jerseys as identifiers. For many folks in Mexico, Central or South America those symbols represent hatred, torture, and murder.

Wearing a hat jersey or sporting a bumper or window sticker could get one killed in some cities.

Black criminal street gangs have adopted the colors Blue and Red as their own. We see sports and movie celebrities wearing those colors in solidarity regularly. A kid wearing a pair of red or blue shoes to school, have been killed.

So, should those labels be banned, who gets to decide?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Many of the drug cartels have adopted sports team’s logos, hats, and Jerseys as identifiers. For many folks in Mexico, Central or South America those symbols represent hatred, torture, and murder.

Wearing a hat jersey or sporting a bumper or window sticker could get one killed in some cities.

Black criminal street gangs have adopted the colors Blue and Red as their own. We see sports and movie celebrities wearing those colors in solidarity regularly. A kid wearing a pair of red or blue shoes to school, have been killed.

So, should those labels be banned, who gets to decide?

Bit of a non-sequitor? 3rd-party adoption of a team's logo/jersey, or association of a gang with a particular colour seems an entirely different question than memorializing a Nazi division.