Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by mhailey

by the way, what does an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac do?


Stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

I don't know if you guys saw the article on Mother Theresa in Time - turns out after her initial vision(s), she lived her whole life without feeling God's presence, in doubt and suffering (excluding several weeks when the Pope died)!

Quite a surprise to anyone, including her sisters. Only her confessors knew, because she wrote them letters - she could not even talk about this. She had asked for her letters to be destroyed but the person responsible for her beatification decided to publish them...

Cheers
Ivo

Originally Posted by edk442

I took a class on the Philosophy or Religion that neither tried to prove nor disprove the existence of God, simply provided arguments for each school of thought. I have to say that what you said is a far more convincing argument than anything I paid $456 to read. With that said, I'm in the same boat as chief, on the side of non-believing. I went to a catholic school up till I graduated. I'm baptised, and did the whole communion thing. I'm stilll atheist.

To each his own -- I just think it benefits a human to not be too high and mighty either way --- especially, when considering all things -- I can't recreate myself, I don't have the knowledge to recreate the universe, I'm born into a universe I really can't understand --- I have the power of logic but are we even talking about something logical? --- Everything is supernatural or nothing is ------- everything deserves a moment of appreciation and awe --- affiliate God with it or not --- but all I know is that I do not know --for sure ---and that is human.

Justin

Originally Posted by izlat

I don't know if you guys saw the article on Mother Theresa in Time - turns out after her initial vision(s), she lived her whole life without feeling God's presence, in doubt and suffering (excluding several weeks when the Pope died)!

Quite a surprise to anyone, including her sisters. Only her confessors knew, because she wrote them letters - she could not even talk about this. She had asked for her letters to be destroyed but the person responsible for her beatification decided to publish them...

Cheers
Ivo

Thanks Ivo for bringing that up ------ I think even the most religious and faithful will have their doubts --

Justin

When I start thinking about these types of topics my head eventually starts to hurt.

It's like trying to figure out the Universe or infinity... you know... if the Universe is everything, then what's outside of that? If infinity goes forever, what's beyond that? Same with God... if god made everything, then where did (s)he come from? If God has always existed, then what came before that? Etc.?

So I avoid the topic... and the uncertainty doesn't bother me in the least. I guess that makes me an agnostic in the strictest sense. For those that can't live with such uncertainty, there are religions to provide them with answers.

just my $.02

Originally Posted by azjoe

When I start thinking about these types of topics my head eventually starts to hurt.

It's like trying to figure out the Universe or infinity... you know... if the Universe is everything, then what's outside of that? If infinity goes forever, what's beyond that? Same with God... if god made everything, then where did (s)he come from? If God has always existed, then what came before that? Etc.?

So I avoid the topic... and the uncertainty doesn't bother me in the least. I guess that makes me an agnostic in the strictest sense. For those that can't live with such uncertainty, there are religions to provide them with answers.

just my $.02

I don't avoid the topic, but I agree with you. I don't think our meager minds are up to the task of comprehending the true "God" - never mind our ability to communicate something like this. I think this is where we get religions. They are a means of symbolizing or pointing us to that which is beyond our comprehension. I may not be articulating this well...

Joseph Campbell did some very interesting work in this area.

Jordan

Since this thread is not about the validity or invalidity of any specific religion/set of beliefs, and merely the small topic of "God" I have to point out one, indisputable fact.

Life does not come from non-life.

You cannot bang two rocks together and get a fly, or an amoeba. Life had to have come from some other life. While I agree that evolution by natural selection does exist, and can be demonstrated in the world, evolution as a means of creation takes a lot more faith to believe than any religion. Saying that we evolved by mere happenstance is like saying that a Ford Mustang Shelby Cobra just happened to come into existence, through no involvement of a human being.

Sure, some will say that you put the 'building blocks of life" in a primordial goo, strike it with lightning, and BAM you have life. This is too much of a stretch for me. This is the same as saying you put some metal in a box and shake it for a while, strike it with lightning and then you have a working watch keeping perfect time.

Also, evolution through natural selection cuts against the evolution as a means of creation. Animals evolve in order to survive against those forces which attempt to destroy them. However, the first organism would have no incentive or need to evolve, as there were no predators feeding upon it, and it presumably was thriving since it was the first, and only, life.

Lastly, the law of entropy cuts against the theory of evolution as a means of creation. the law of entropy is the law that matter is moving from a state of complexity to a state of simplicity. (when you eat a banana, the matter of the banana goes from a complex state, to a simple state, and your body uses up the nutrients, the sun is burning out and going from a complex state to a simple state, ...) However evolution as a means of creation holds that matter went from a simple state, to a complex state, and continually gets more complex.

It is much more logical for me to believe that we were created by a supreme being, than to believe that we happened by mere chance. Just looking at the world, and the complexity of nature, there is no way that all of this "just evolved." There has to be God.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Well I consider your post to be the start of that thread.
I believe that there is a God(s). I think it is pointless to put value in names, other than to name him/her in a conversation or to call on him/her.
Whether you call him Yaweh, Jehova, Allah or Odin it doesn't matter. Male and female gender are human things and I don't think it matters at all.

I also think it is not a problem to believe in more than one god. As far as I am concerned they are just representations of different aspects of the divine entity.
There is only one federal government per country, but it has a department of defense, department of healthcare, ... I don't see why the notion of multiple gods should conflict with the notion of 1 god.

One thing in which I might differ from others is that I think that churches get in the way of true religion.
I don't need priests to talk to god, I can do that myself. If god can hear the priests he can hear me too.
I also don't see why a priest / bishop / pope should be more authorative than me. their functions are pure human inventions, with promotion based on human criteria. as far as I can see, god is not involved in the whole process.

Furthermore, if we look at the past, it is safe to say that religious institutions have caused atrocities beyond belief. All of them have so no one is better than the other. If God really had something to do with organized religion, he sure made a fine mess of it.

Then there are the holy books. I can only comment on the bible because that was what I was taught in school (I am a non practising catholic).
The bible is a compilation of several separate pieces, made by whoever was in power at a time.
The contents of the New Testament were determined by a group of men with an agenda, and they scratched everything not in line with their thinking.

I do believe, but not in institutions. Institutions are only interested in pushing their own agenda.

Very well said. can u read my mind? Oh holy one.

Originally Posted by mhailey

Since this thread is not about the validity or invalidity of any specific religion/set of beliefs, and merely the small topic of "God" I have to point out one, indisputable fact.

Life does not come from non-life.

I really don't know where life came from, or how the universe got started for that matter, but to say that that is a fact is stretching it.

There is no conclusive argument. You may think it extremely unlikely, but a couple of hundreds of years ago, the earth was flat because it stood to reason. It was a pure fact and anyone thinking different was guilty of heresy.

I don't know the answer, but I think that there are no facts EDIT: Regarding the possibility of creating life, only opinions.

Originally Posted by mhailey

1) This is the same as saying you put some metal in a box and shake it for a while, strike it with lightning and then you have a working watch keeping perfect time.

2) Also, evolution through natural selection cuts against the evolution as a means of creation. Animals evolve in order to survive against those forces which attempt to destroy them. However, the first organism would have no incentive or need to evolve, as there were no predators feeding upon it, and it presumably was thriving since it was the first, and only, life.
.

#1 is easy to poke holes in.
You only ASSUME that this reality we perceive is a watch keeping perfect time because it's the only reality you know.
If you remove the presupposition that the universe is perfect then this statement becomes profoundly arrogant.
How dare you define perfection? Perhaps you can explain infinity next?

#2
You forgot enviromental factors other than predators.
How about heat? Cold? Changing food sources? Changing water chemistry?
Changing atmospheric conditions?
Perhaps you can explain why influenza mutates?
The common cold?

I am undecided on God as a reality, but as a social force I am convinced of the importance of a higher power.
Without religion to lay out moral absolutes, AKA moral facts (if there can be such a thing) we have no starting point and anything goes.

That being said, IF there is a God then we would be led to believe in an opposing force, ie. the Devil.
If there is a Devil, the furthering of organized religion would be his greatest achievement by far.

You may have heard me play the "God Card" before in other threads.
It's convenient. It's almost impossible to argue with.
You may be perceived as being evil, immoral, whatever, just for having the audacity to debate against the religious stance.

Herein lies the trap of religion. If you don't agree you aren't just different, you're evil.
That is why Liberals have been eroding religion so aggressively for so long, you can't argue with it.
All you can do is claim that there is no God and call your opponent a "religious nutjob".
Of course there are some of those too....