The Ukraine Situation

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It was the Russian Winter that really defeated the Germans like it defeated Napoleon.

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I think you will find it wasn't as simple as just the winter that beat them, during operation Barbarossa firstly Adolf Hitler totally ignored his General who told him do not under any circumstances attack on three fronts, he also warned him to be prepared for a longer winter war which he also ignored, and on the opposing side Stalin the dickhead that he was just so happened to have a brilliant General Georgy Zhukov, we should all learn from our past mistakes but we never do, leaders and politicians should not advise us in times of war unless your political leader just so happens to be Winston Churchill, who was not a very good politician, Churchill was a serving officer who served in the first world war on the Western Front, we need Soldiers Generals and military minds for that and not politicians. Having said that the winter had a significant role in the final result, but a lot of it was down to Adolf Hitler's total disregard for his General, who wanted a full out assault on Moscow with winter provisions all in place for the long haul.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-war-episode-1

Jamie

Looks like a good series, unfortunately it only works in the UK.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Jamie

Looks like a good series, unfortunately it only works in the UK.

Bob

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Yeah, I couldn't see it either. It even recognized a VPN when I gave myself a London IP address.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Jamie

Looks like a good series, unfortunately it only works in the UK.

Bob

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Originally Posted by STF

Yeah, I couldn't see it either. It even recognized a VPN when I gave myself a London IP address.

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Gentlemen If you get the opportunity to watch the series do so, it's a new series with many things not heard or seen before, series 1 came out in 2019, I finished watching series 2 last month, I think you can pick up series 1 on youtube, shouldn't be to long before series 2 follows.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10911538/

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Originally Posted by BobH

Russia invaded Ukraine so it is hard for me to imagine that Zelenskyy has any other agenda than repelling the Russians.

Bob

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Yea that was what we thought about the South Vietnamese at first. Turns out they would cut your heart out and smile at you while you bled out. Don't be fooled by this guy! It's the innocent who will suffer!

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Originally Posted by BobH

Realpolitik requires the abandonment of ethics/morals in divining a diplomatic solution. I'm not so sure that would be a good idea.

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"Abandonment of ethics/morals"? No; but it does mean placing ideology behind problem-solving. We can talk talk talk about how the Russian military "sucks", but however much it does, it's (a) better trained than the Ukrainian forces; and (b) it greatly outnumbers the Ukrainian forces in manpower and materiel. Thus the NATO strategy during the 1970s (when I served in West Germany) was "attrition" -- we knew we were outnumbered, and that we couldn't prevent "Ivan" from breaking through the Fulda Gap, so it was a "defense in depth" -- pick 'em off as they made their way into West Germany (and elsewhere) and, little by little, weaken and/or destroy them. Never happened, but that was the plan.

Was that ethical? moral? Depends whom you asked. But that was realpolitik. Anyway, that's 45 years ago. Today, it's too late for Zelenskyy, too late for Ukraine. Now all he gets to do is try to have some input into their terms of surrender.

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Originally Posted by JBHoren

"Abandonment of ethics/morals"? No; but it does mean placing ideology behind problem-solving. We can talk talk talk about how the Russian military "sucks", but however much it does, it's (a) better trained than the Ukrainian forces; and (b) it greatly outnumbers the Ukrainian forces in manpower and materiel. Thus the NATO strategy during the 1970s (when I served in West Germany) was "attrition" -- we knew we were outnumbered, and that we couldn't prevent "Ivan" from breaking through the Fulda Gap, so it was a "defense in depth" -- pick 'em off as they made their way into West Germany (and elsewhere) and, little by little, weaken and/or destroy them. Never happened, but that was the plan.

Was that ethical? moral? Depends whom you asked. But that was realpolitik. Anyway, that's 45 years ago. Today, it's too late for Zelenskyy, too late for Ukraine. Now all he gets to do is try to have some input into their terms of surrender.

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You can say that about many things. During the AmericanRevolution a bunch of rag tag forces beat the best military in the world at the time. Even if Ukraine falls they can launch Guerilla attacks and bleed Russia. They can also send squads into Russia and start blowing up Russians like the Chechnya fighters did.

They can make Russia pay a very heavy price. When you are beaten and have nothing to lose that's when you are dangerous.

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Originally Posted by JBHoren

"Abandonment of ethics/morals"? No; but it does mean placing ideology behind problem-solving. We can talk talk talk about how the Russian military "sucks", but however much it does, it's (a) better trained than the Ukrainian forces; and (b) it greatly outnumbers the Ukrainian forces in manpower and materiel. Thus the NATO strategy during the 1970s (when I served in West Germany) was "attrition" -- we knew we were outnumbered, and that we couldn't prevent "Ivan" from breaking through the Fulda Gap, so it was a "defense in depth" -- pick 'em off as they made their way into West Germany (and elsewhere) and, little by little, weaken and/or destroy them. Never happened, but that was the plan.

Was that ethical? moral? Depends whom you asked. But that was realpolitik. Anyway, that's 45 years ago. Today, it's too late for Zelenskyy, too late for Ukraine. Now all he gets to do is try to have some input into their terms of surrender.

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You have changed the definition of Realpolitik then.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realpolitik

I don't know if the Russian invaders are better trained given the snail's pace charge towards victory they are having against Ukraine. Yes, it does outnumber the Ukrainian army in men and material but perhaps suffers from low moral within the ranks none the less.

Yes, I well remember the NATO strategy in Europe during the 1970s having been in the Canadian Naval Reserve at the time. Defence in depth till we could get enough men and material over to turn the tide, maybe. You neglected to mention that the use of tactical nukes was also in the plans for that eventuality. The RCAF had to retrain from the interceptor role to low level delivery of weapons up to and including tactical nukes using F 105 Starfighters. Meanwhile the RCN concentrated on anti submarine warfare to keep the sea lanes open to Europe while practising nuclear transit routines. Thankfully, none of that came to pass.

No it is not too late for Zelenskyy if other countries are willing to get directly involved and risk an escalation of the current conflict to the nuclear level. You know, practice realpolitik.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

You have changed the definition of Realpolitik then.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realpolitik

I don't know if the Russian invaders are better trained given the snail's pace charge towards victory they are having against Ukraine. Yes, it does outnumber the Ukrainian army in men and material but perhaps suffers from low moral within the ranks none the less.

Yes, I well remember the NATO strategy in Europe during the 1970s having been in the Canadian Naval Reserve at the time. Defence in depth till we could get enough men and material over to turn the tide, maybe. You neglected to mention that the use of tactical nukes was also in the plans for that eventuality. The RCAF had to retrain from the interceptor role to low level delivery of weapons up to and including tactical nukes using F 105 Starfighters. Meanwhile the RCN concentrated on anti submarine warfare to keep the sea lanes open to Europe while practising nuclear transit routines. Thankfully, none of that came to pass.

No it is not too late for Zelenskyy if other countries are willing to get directly involved and risk an escalation of the current conflict to the nuclear level. You know, practice realpolitik.

Bob

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I don't think the Russian army is well trained, I think their a huge army made up mostly of conscripts that would rather be anywhere else.

It must be difficult to train and equip such a huge army well, you know what they say about quality over quantity.

The Ukrainians are not beaten yet and they can certainly make themselves a real pain in the bum to the Russians even if they are conquered.

I wonder how we would react as a country if we were invaded, did anyone here see "Red Dawn" years ago with Patrick Swayze.

I joined the British army in 1979 and spent my time between Paderborn in Germany and N. Ireland.

Pretty much a moot point now

The west has accepted the killing of Civilians
The west is ok with suppling weapons to increase the body count on both sides
Pretty much the Media has moved to the talk of where Russia is going to draw the new border

I can't say as I am disappointed in this decision looking at the leaders of the NATO countries I only see a couple that seem to have the steel needed in a situation like this.

If this was going to be stopped it would have happened on day two