Thread: Western culture! How fortunate we are!

I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history. I think most people subscribe to the concept that truth and morality are not relative concepts; rather, they are immutable absolutes. So what is morally right today was morally right yesterday, and last year, and last century. Likewise, what is true today was true yesterday, and last year and last century. Moral relativism is not the favored moral concept of most people I know. And if that's the case, then the practice of slavery, institutionalized racism, de facto racism, gender discrimination, etc. were just as morally abhorrent at the time that were "officially" practiced as they would be if they were currently being practiced. And under that set of moral principles, there is nothing but cold comfort in making observations about "how far we have come." We should never have been "there" in the first place if we we're what we claim to be-a Nation established under God, by God-fearing, moral people. Millions of people had their lives completely ruined because of the exercise of raw power by the ruling majority. A majority that turned a blind eye to any notion of morality when it came to the treatment of minorities and women, but who instead sat in their pews every Sunday morning listening to their religious leaders preach on how the Bible actually countenences the practice of racial and gender discrimination. Decades go by, and people's families are torn apart by a ruling majority, aided by their government, who lack the moral compass and self-awareness to recognize the depravity of their "tradition" and "way of life". Decades go by, and the majority, and their government, continue to engage in beating, whipping, raping, hanging, and countless acts of agression against fellow citizens; citizens who never lived to see their holocaust end; who never received restitution for their forced labor; citizens who were forced to suffer constant insults to their human dignity without ever having had the opportunity to recivece reciprocal justice on those who kicked them, or spat on them. There was no opportunity for obtaining justice against the opressors. Opressors who sold the children of those they enslaved like mere chattel. No opportunity for those whose lives were wasted in subjugated imprisonment to see justice for having been forced to work the fields of their oppressors; and who raised the like their own children the sons and daughters of their oppressors.
What was sick and morally corrupt about what went on in this country, and what continues to be practiced at a lesser extent, was just as wrong 200 years ago as it is now.
So forgive me if I reject the idea that we should be proud of the fact that things are "better now". Too many people lived, suffered and died needlessly in subservience to the immoral legacy of this country's history. This country's institutionalized and personal practice of bigotry, hate, intolerance and prejudice, and the extreme suffering it has caused, should never have been practiced to begin with by a people who claimed to be a moral, God-fearing populace.
And that is why I have no patience for those who take comfort in "how far we have come". We should never have been "there" in the first place.

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history. I think most people subscribe to the concept that truth and morality are not relative concepts; rather, they are immutable absolutes. So what is morally right today was morally right yesterday, and last year, and last century. Likewise, what is true today was true yesterday, and last year and last century. Moral relativism is not the favored moral concept of most people I know. And if that's the case, then the practice of slavery, institutionalized racism, de facto racism, gender discrimination, etc. were just as morally abhorrent at the time that were "officially" practiced as they would be if they were currently being practiced. And under that set of moral principles, there is nothing but cold comfort in making observations about "how far we have come." We should never have been "there" in the first place if we we're what we claim to be-a Nation established under God, by God-fearing, moral people. Millions of people had their lives completely ruined because of the exercise of raw power by the ruling majority. A majority that turned a blind eye to any notion of morality when it came to the treatment of minorities and women, but who instead sat in their pews every Sunday morning listening to their religious leaders preach on how the Bible actually countenences the practice of racial and gender discrimination. Decades go by, and people's families are torn apart by a ruling majority, aided by their government, who lack the moral compass and self-awareness to recognize the depravity of their "tradition" and "way of life". Decades go by, and the majority, and their government, continue to engage in beating, whipping, raping, hanging, and countless acts of agression against fellow citizens; citizens who never lived to see their holocaust end; who never received restitution for their forced labor; citizens who were forced to suffer constant insults to their human dignity without ever having had the opportunity to recivece reciprocal justice on those who kicked them, or spat on them. There was no opportunity for obtaining justice against the opressors. Opressors who sold the children of those they enslaved like mere chattel. No opportunity for those whose lives were wasted in subjugated imprisonment to see justice for having been forced to work the fields of their oppressors; and who raised the like their own children the sons and daughters of their oppressors.
What was sick and morally corrupt about what went on in this country, and what continues to be practiced at a lesser extent, was just as wrong 200 years ago as it is now.
So forgive me if I reject the idea that we should be proud of the fact that things are "better now". Too many people lived, suffered and died needlessly in subservience to the immoral legacy of this country's history. This country's institutionalized and personal practice of bigotry, hate, intolerance and prejudice, and the extreme suffering it has caused, should never have been practiced to begin with by a people who claimed to be a moral, God-fearing populace.
And that is why I have no patience for those who take comfort in "how far we have come". We should never have been "there" in the first place.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!

By the way, It's a good thing we saw the error of our ways, don't you think?

It's a bit of a glass half empty/full topic of discussion, this. All societies (Western, Eastern, whatever) will have points to cheer about and ones to be damned ashamed of. Seems to me whether you cheer or boo depends firmly where you find yourself in such a society.

What I find interesting about this thread so far (apologies, slightly ), is the very obvious pride that citizens in the US have of their country. That's something we Brits used to have but, very very sadly, seems to be an exteremely rare thing now. Which leads me to another tought... what execatly IS 'western society'? Since this is Mark's thread, we should let him try to define that part of his statement. (And if that's not a posioned chalice, I don't know what is! )

Anyway, back on topic...

I'm proud of... SHEFFIELD STEEL of course, d'uh!

I'm not proud of... bureacracy. Has anyone ever wondered why you have to go around the houses for anything in India (get a ticket for this, get a stamp for that, go to the Shroff's office to validate it, blah blah blah)? Yep, the Brits worst export ever was a bottomless pit of bureaucracy.

"By the way, It's a good thing we saw the error of our ways, don't you think?"

---Yeah, it's always a good thing to admit to our little faux pas. Nothing to be too concerned about, really.

What time does "America's Got Talent" go on tonite???

I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history.

Your view is pessimistic, and doesn't reflect at all what I was attempting to do when I talked about how far we've come. We can choose to better our own nation because we have a Constitution which emboldens us to act on our freedoms. The Constitution didn't limit the freedom of blacks or women. The USA is a result of the choices of its citizens because of the way it was founded. Hasn't the US become increasingly free because of that principle?

Maybe not. I do know several women though who voted for a black man in the last democratic presidential primary. That should put a smile on your face

I quibble not with the points that "things have gotten better" or "we've come a long way" as this nation's history has progressed.
My point was addressed to those who try to make the argument that this nation was somehow imbued with Divine Greatness at its founding, through divine inspiration and guidance. If that was the case, then why did God not put it upon the hearts of our forefathers to treat minorities and woman like equals instead of inferiors?
Maybe it just skipped His mind...who knows.
It's just a darn shame that it's taken so long for wrongs that should never have been there in the first place to be righted. If someone puts his foot on my throat and holds it there for, oh say 200 years, should I be grateful and appreciative to that person when he finally decides to remove it?

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

I quibble not with the points that "things have gotten better" or "we've come a long way" as this nation's history has progressed.
My point was addressed to those who try to make the argument that this nation was somehow imbued with Divine Greatness at its founding, through divine inspiration and guidance. If that was the case, then why did God not put it upon the hearts of our forefathers to treat minorities and woman like equals instead of inferiors?
Maybe it just skipped His mind...who knows.
It's just a darn shame that it's taken so long for wrongs that should never have been there in the first place to be righted. If someone puts his foot on my throat and holds it there for, oh say 200 years, should I be grateful and appreciative to that person when he finally decides to remove it?

You will find an argument any where I believe!
I scanned over the posts in my thread and did not find one person saying the things that you claim that you were addressing, which leads me to believe that your only purpose for posting in my thread is to cause problems instead of address solutions!
I will thank you to no longer post in my thread!

Mark

@BillyJeff:
Please don't rant or goad people. That is not what this thread is for, and that's not necessary to make a point. This forum is also not a pulpit from which to deliver fire and brimstone sermons.

Also (and this is just a matter of being courteous) if you feel the need to write lengthy posts, please break them up into paragraphs because half a page of dense text is not only difficult to read, it is also hard for people to respond to individual items in your post because they'd have to manually cut text into paragraphs.

@everyone:
it takes two to tango. don't reply to people if you don't think it will go anywhere constructive.

Oh, and Trumpers and Truefitt & Hill... I'm proud of those too.

And the BBC. And the NHS. And Babe Ruth.

Wait, he's not one of ours, nix that.

How about this:
I am grateful for the opportunity Western culture, and the US Constitution, affords me to express my views without fear of censorship or retribution, and to express the truth as I view it.

Better?

btw: What time does "Dancing With The Stars" go on?