Thread: The Large Hadron Collider

Originally Posted by Nickelking

as a geek I can't wait until 9/10 to see what we learn, but a lot of folks are saying we shouldn't meddle with this kind of stuff. Opinions?

Objectively speaking (but, of course, I'm interested in other points of view) research into "pure science" starts out as innocent intellectual curiosity and ends up killing people. What have we gained from nuclear physics, so far, besides atomic bombs and nuclear reactors? These huge public science projects are work-fare for scientists so that they'll be available to build the next big weapon (if they don't blow us up by accident along the way).

Originally Posted by Chimensch

What have we gained from nuclear physics, so far, besides atomic bombs and nuclear reactors?

First off you're rather quick to discount nuclear power... that's a huge step in clean energy. But ok, you want to discount that I'm game. What has nuclear physics done for us... it grew the ability for medical imaging by leaps and bounds allowing us to have a much more effecient diagnosis procedure in our medicine. The knowledge regarding half life allowed us to date ancient artifacts much more precicely which hugely helped archeologists. It led to the development of proton therapy for cancer which has saved my grandfathers life. and that clean energy thing, but we won't mention that.

So yeah as you said science doesn't do anything for us.

Originally Posted by Nickelking

First off you're rather quick to discount nuclear power... that's a huge step in clean energy. But ok, you want to discount that I'm game. What has nuclear physics done for us... it grew the ability for medical imaging by leaps and bounds allowing us to have a much more effecient diagnosis procedure in our medicine. The knowledge regarding half life allowed us to date ancient artifacts much more precicely which hugely helped archeologists. It led to the development of proton therapy for cancer which has saved my grandfathers life. and that clean energy thing, but we won't mention that.

So yeah as you said science doesn't do anything for us.

OK, I stand corrected ... and I'm happy for your grandfather, but what's clean about nuclear energy? It's dangerous (Chernobyl) and leaves a lot of waste that we still don't know what to do with.

True the waste is a problem, but at least it's containable. as for chernobyl yeah that was bad, but it was also built shoddily and barely maintained. compare the number of plants in extince to the number of disasters caused by them.

I live in an area surrounded by nuclear plants and have never had a problem.

PS: Sorry for the previous post btw, got a bit heated by the argument that science in general isn't good. I was prepared for arguments against the LHC but not science in general.

Originally Posted by Nickelking

Sorry for the previous post btw, got a bit heated by the argument that science in general isn't good. I was prepared for arguments against the LHC but not science in general.

That's OK, my clothes were a little singed but no flesh. I'm not trying to say that nothing good comes from basic science but that it's a question of proportion. For example, on the negative side nuclear physics gave us the atom bomb (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), the cold war, tens of thousands of nuclear war heads and depleted uranium. If it were possible to draft a balance sheet of benefit versus harm, I think we'd be surprised by how negative it is. Your grandfather and the archeological artificats on the plus side and the War in Iraq (weapons of mass destruction), 200 Israeli nukes and Iran enriching uranium on the other... See where I'm coming from? I'm not saying that we shouldn't do science because no one's going to stop it, anyway. I'm just saying that I used to feel that "progress" was a good thing and now I'm beginning to see the dark side.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

OK, I stand corrected ... and I'm happy for your grandfather, but what's clean about nuclear energy? It's dangerous (Chernobyl) and leaves a lot of waste that we still don't know what to do with.

Chernobyl is what happens if people do stupid things. Like manually disable all safety elements (by removing them or mechanically blocking them), driving the reactor knowingly beyond its design limits, ignoring anybody who argued against it, and then at the very last instant performing an action which was known to increase the reaction first before slowing it, rather than slowing it immediately.

Chernobyl is a sad testament to what happens if people with authority violate every rule in the book, only to see what happens.

As the Americans say: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

But bruno, there's still a point there despite a poor example. 3 mile island? these accidents do happen.

But then textile factories are a haven of fire, refineries explode, and tankers spill oil into the ocean. A nuclear plant is safe enough to be considered an acceptable risk at their current disaster rate in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Objectively speaking (but, of course, I'm interested in other points of view) research into "pure science" starts out as innocent intellectual curiosity and ends up killing people. What have we gained from nuclear physics, so far, besides atomic bombs and nuclear reactors? These huge public science projects are work-fare for scientists so that they'll be available to build the next big weapon (if they don't blow us up by accident along the way).

This type of research is not specifically for weapons.
First of all, there is nothing bad about nuclear reactors. They're our cleanest source of energy right now.

But about the LHC: fundamental physics is about understanding the way the universe works. Quantum theory, relativity, and whatnot are giving us valuable stuff.
Take tunnel diodes. We wouldn't have been able to make them without QT at our disposal. And nowadays they;re part of lots of electronic equipment to compensate for electric resistance.

QT has also given us internet. every high speed backbone uses semiconductor lasers. I worked in a research lab where they invent these things. there are a handful of very smart people in every such lab, solving the QT for their lasers so that they know how to make lasers that do what is needed.
QT has given us a lot over the last years.

And while nuclear weapons are not the best idea ever, they have given use MAD, which kept the world stable at a time when WW3 would have been an option otherwise.

Yes, someone, somewhere might figure out how to build the next scale of weapon from theoretical physics.
But what is the alternative? Putting our fingers in our ears, singing lalalala and hoping that noone else is doing research?
In the end, that kind of knowledge is the only chance we will ever have of surviving the next couple of thousands of years as a species. Because one of these millenia there will be an asteroid hit, or a supervolcano, or some other extinction level event, and if we haven't made if off this mudball by then, it's all over.

The CERN is only a few miles away from my place, and - besides tentacles - I look almost like you

People from the CERN made this video - I don't like rap but this is cool - because there is some sort of "controversy": a few people and scientists are saying that the CERN will create a black hole and that the earth will be destroyed... I haven't made that much physics but that sounds a little far too stretch.The CERN has been created in 1954 and didn't had one major incident - I can't even remember of a small one (that doesn't mean there could not be one, but the people working there are the cream of the professional...) btw the WWW was invented there by Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau...

When the train was invented, they were people and scientists saying that this was impossible because our body would never survive such a speed (If I remember well they wanted to go as fast as 30km/h) or that we will die suffocating because the speed of the air would not let us breathe... hopefully, we didn't stop at those considerations...

I will not enter the usual debate about what fundamental physics can bring us that is good... I think that if you have entered an hospital today the answer will be obvious. But if you are interested in reading more about the CERN and the use of basic science, there is a nice paper there: CERN - The use of basic science