Thread: Shaving and Orthodox Judaism story

Originally Posted by majurey

Yes, we were young (me 19, she 20) and we did go through a lot of stress. I'm very lucky she was strong and stood up for me and our relationship. 20 years on and our two kids are 6 and 3. My son was circumcised (the bris was probably the most difficult thing I have had to endure). My relief at having a girl second time around (especially as we were told to expect a boy at the scan) was huge. But now at 6 we're faced with the conundrum of whether to send him to Hebrew School on Sundays, to eventually prepare him for his Bar Mitzvah. It's crunch time again.

You see, I finally have a problem with this. If we sent him to lessons, it would be for the benefit of his grandparents (my in-laws), since [1] I am an agnostic, and [2] my wife is not an observant Jew. It would be merely to appease my in-laws. That doesn't make it wrong necessarily (it's both about an individual's belief as well as the wider family's beliefs), but it puts me in a very difficult position with my children.

For example, he will be taught stuff I just don't believe. How will I reconcile that with him in discussions at such a young age. "Why don't you believe in God, Dad? My teacher says... etc." And the killer in my mind "If you don't believe in this, why are you sending me to Hebrew school every Sunday?" There's so many shades of grey here it's overawing.

Ignoring the issue won't make it go away. The day will come when my in-laws will wonder what the hell we're doing to prepare for his Bar Mitzvah, and the coming of age for a boy is still regarded as a big thing even amongst Jews who are not particularly observant. My wife still believes it's an important social tradition (I would probably agree given that the concept of a ritual to mark the coming of age for young men is hardly specific to Judaism!).

Ach, sorry, I've gone way OT and in danger of !

Oy vay.

If you want my opinion, I would send him. Here's my reasoning:

1. He is Jewish. If you have to be something, it's probably better to understand what it is.

2. I don't think they talk alot about god in Jewish sunday school. It's more about the bible and Jewish history and, indirectly, about god. And don't worry, he won't ask you questions like why don't you believe in god until he's much older.

3. He'll learn something about the bible and, as you well know, the bible is one of the cornerstones of our culture.

4. He'll probably learn some Hebrew. Learning a foreign language when you're young helps you learn other languages later. Also, he'll learn to write backwards, which is neat trick to show your friends.

5. Being Jewish and having Jewish friends is certainly not a handicap in our society. You work in publishing and must certainly have noticed a high percentage of Jews in the media. And, if he wants to become an international banker, wow!

I could go on but I already have eough enemies...

What are the othodox's view of straights? I did not think that they had anything against them, electrics I can understand.

I don't know much about judaism so I cannot give answers that are authoritative on the subject, but my wife and I have the same situation regarding catholicism.

I will forego the details of what I believe in, but I am not in the catholic camp anymore, and neither is my wife. We did not marry before the catholic church (we were married by a reverend in the US so I don't know if that would constitute being married) and our children aren't baptised.

Most schools here are catholic, and my oldest goes to catholic preschool.
If she asks questions we try to give an answer that is historically accurate. If she gets older and starts asking difficult questions, I want her to understand the clear line between fact and faith.
If she decides she wants to be catholic at a relatively mature age, we will let her be baptised and we will support her.

But I don't want her to become catholic, just because that's what's been foisted onto us at birth. If she becomes one, it will be her choice.

We got some flak from my mother and grandmother inlaw. It's been a while since she brought it up again, but we told her look. the principles and consequences of being (un)baptised are such and such. do you believe that? well neither do we. So why should we do this if none of us actually believes it?'
I have a lot of respect for people who believe, even though I may not agree. I have a lot of respect for those who thought about it for a long time, and then decided they didn't.

But I have no respect for the sheeple who just go through the motions because the family expects it, or because they want to prance down the isle in nice clothes but can't otherwise be bothered to go to church.

That said, with catholicism it's never too late to make the choice. I don't know if judaism is as easy to get into as catholicism. If the priest is convinced you are serious and you know what catholicism entails, becoming a full fledged catholic is a matter of minutes.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Highly orthodox Jews are intolerant because they see themselves as the only true jews and don't even recognize others as being jewish. Most outside their sect view them as religious nuts.

As far as less orthodox jews being intolerant here in the U.S that has pretty much gone by the wayside except for the religious sects. The reason being that if everyone intermarries eventually there will be no more jews or that's what they are afraid of.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Personally, I'm an ethnic Jew, even though I basically accept the Jewish view of the Deity.

Part of my family is very orthodox. I recently attended a wedding where, at the dinner, I was seated with some highly orthodox family members, male of course. To one gentleman, I stated, "Yes, I'm not religious, but even though I come from a mixed marriage, my mother was Jewish, and I've always felt very Jewish."

He replied, "Of course, that's the Law! That's what you are, no question."

There's no doubt in my mind that if they were short for a minyon (prayer quorom), they would have accepted me even in an instant. I was treated warmly, as a family member, and with the utmost respect.

But, it's true. Jews don't evangelize, and assimilation means oblivion.

Just some thoughts!

Joel

Originally Posted by Bruno

That said, with catholicism it's never too late to make the choice. I don't know if judaism is as easy to get into as catholicism. If the priest is convinced you are serious and you know what catholicism entails, becoming a full fledged catholic is a matter of minutes.

In the US, it depends on if you were baptized or not (what the church considers "baptized" that is) and what time of year you are trying to convert. Adults converting to Catholicism are only baptized once a year in a special mass before easter. Prior to that they are attending classes on the history of the church, its beliefs and values etc. But all of this can certainly be short circuited if its the right time of year.


I was raised catholic and went to parochial school through high school, but later determined that God and I don't need a middle man.

I will say I have a tremendous respect for the Jesuits as an intellectual group.


-Rob

Originally Posted by jbcohen

What are the othodox's view of straights? I did not think that they had anything against them, electrics I can understand.

According to the Orthodox, a straight razor is a knife that scrapes the face and, therefore, forbidden. In my day (I'm 60 and haven't been around many Jews since I was 20), most Orthodox didn't shave at all. Shaving was an innovation of the Conservative movement, which thought that Jews should try and blend in more with the local culture. The Conservatives said that an electric shaver was OK because it was a scissors cutting the hair and not a knife scraping the face (this is an example of Talmudic hair-splitting, pun intended).

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Other than my own, I've only attended one circumcision and I really couldn't stand to look too closely but I thought it was a surgeon's scalpel.

Wouldn't that go against the double, or two blades law?

Originally Posted by JMS

Wouldn't that go against the double, or two blades law?

No, one doesn't have anything to do with other. The bible says don't shave your face. The Talmud interprets this and says that it means don't scrape your face with a knife. From this, the conservative movement said a knife is not OK but scissors are OK, hence, you can't use a straight razor but you can use an electric shaver.

Circumcision, which is cutting off the foreskin, has nothing to do with shaving.

Mark, about sending your son to Hebrew school to prepare for his Bar Mitzvah, I am not Jewish and so may be going out four feet on a three-foot limb, but in your situation I would send him. Judaism is an important part of his heritage and culture--as well as an important part of Western heritage and culture. If he is well grounded in his tradition, he will be ready to make informed choices about how he will live in relation to his heritage, when he is a man according to the Torah and otherwise.

Inching out another foot on the limb, it's my understanding that there is room in Judaism for a little different relationship between "belief" and "being Jewish" than Christians commonly acknowledge between "belief" and "being Christian." In other words, it seems to me that there is a strong tradition in Judaism of respect for skepticism and questioning, and an understanding that one cannot compel belief--even one's own. One can, in fact--or so I have read--be both a Jew and an agnostic, maybe even an atheist. (Again, bear in mind this is an outsider's understanding. I'm sure there are differences on this point among individuals and religious communities.) It seems to me that Judaism is a little more grown-up than mainstream Christianity in this regard.

~Rich

Originally Posted by uofi1963

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Personally, I'm an ethnic Jew, even though I basically accept the Jewish view of the Deity.

Part of my family is very orthodox. I recently attended a wedding where, at the dinner, I was seated with some highly orthodox family members, male of course. To one gentleman, I stated, "Yes, I'm not religious, but even though I come from a mixed marriage, my mother was Jewish, and I've always felt very Jewish."

He replied, "Of course, that's the Law! That's what you are, no question."

There's no doubt in my mind that if they were short for a minyon (prayer quorom), they would have accepted me even in an instant. I was treated warmly, as a family member, and with the utmost respect.

But, it's true. Jews don't evangelize, and assimilation means oblivion.

Just some thoughts!

Joel

I was referring not to just orthodox but to the extreme sects like the haseedem. They are very clannish.