Thread: Shaving and Orthodox Judaism story

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Other than my own, I've only attended one circumcision and I really couldn't stand to look too closely but I thought it was a surgeon's scalpel.

I'm genuinely surprised that you Chimensch , have not had a foreskin sewn back on. Therefore your rejection of your people, your religion and birthright could finally be complete.

Contrary to your bizzare opinion of me I do not belive that "the Jews can do no wrong", it's just that I am a Jew who loves his faith and Israel and find your postings on this board regarding anything to do with Israel and Judaism strange to say the least.

If, as you so clearly state you have no respect for our people, our our religion I fail to understand your need to constantly chip in with negative opinions, something is very clearly eating at you.

I am sorry that you family rejected you for marrying out, but what did you expect??

A Jewish man is faced with choices from the age of barmitzvah, I am sure that you were taught this as a young man.

You made a choice which would clearly cause your family great anguish. That was your decision .

You have had to live with the consequences of that decision.

Man up, accept that what you did went against the tenants of your familys faith and please stop trying to discredit Jewish people on this forum.

Most observant jews adapt their lifestyles with their beliefs. For instance on the sabbath you are not supposed to do anything that invokes work or labor either directly or indirectly. So you can't drive a car or even turn on a light switch or a stove. So they get around this by putting everything on timers or turning on switches and stoves before the sabbath begins and leaving them on until its over.

As far as circumcision goes in the U.S most of it is done in doctors offices or hospitals and they use no knife at all its done with a plastic clip that cuts off circulation and it just falls off. Some will have a religious leader present to make it official. Its mostly the orthodox that still do it the old fashioned way.

Oh, and the remark about sunday school and not mentioning God that's the most riduiculous thing I ever heard. My wife teaches Sunday School at a Synagogue and I can assure you God is mentioned all the time.

Also as far as the gentleman who was shunned by his family for marrying out of his faith I feel sorry for your pain. That was something that was done many many years ago and is still done amongst very orthodox people. I'm sorry to say from his posts I feel his attitude has been soured and his posts reveal that.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

Man up, accept that what you did went against the tenants of your familys faith and please stop trying to discredit Jewish people on this forum.

maybe, just maybe, marrying the woman he loved didn't violate any of his own tenants, and he is upset with the kind of religious intolerance that would condemn a man for doing so.

maybe he views his anecdotal experiences with Judaism (thru his family) as representative of an underlying mindset of bigotry, and thus he has a problem with the belief system that fosters such unthinking intolerance.

not too long ago, folks thought it was wrong to marry a girl who had different colored skin than yours. that was pretty bigoted and hateful, too. I just hope someday religious folks can understand that neither skin color nor the religion you were brought up in should keep you from marrying the person you love and want to spend the rest of your life with.

Chimensch, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I've experienced a similar thing (although not connected with Judaism) and the shunning that comes with it, so I totally get why you might be angry. Hell, I'm angry too.

Originally Posted by jockeys

maybe, just maybe, marrying the woman he loved didn't violate any of his own tenants, and he is upset with the kind of religious intolerance that would condemn a man for doing so.

maybe he views his anecdotal experiences with Judaism (thru his family) as representative of an underlying mindset of bigotry, and thus he has a problem with the belief system that fosters such unthinking intolerance.

not too long ago, folks thought it was wrong to marry a girl who had different colored skin than yours. that was pretty bigoted and hateful, too. I just hope someday religious folks can understand that neither skin color nor the religion you were brought up in should keep you from marrying the person you love and want to spend the rest of your life with.

Chimensch, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I've experienced a similar thing (although not connected with Judaism) and the shunning that comes with it, so I totally get why you might be angry. Hell, I'm angry too.

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

It's called survival, and ensures the continuation of the Jewish people. It is that simple. Chimensch or anyone else is free to leave our faith and community and marry who they please.

That is his business, but why come onto an internet message board and slate the religion and family he chose to abandon?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As far as circumcision goes in the U.S most of it is done in doctors offices or hospitals and they use no knife at all its done with a plastic clip that cuts off circulation and it just falls off. Some will have a religious leader present to make it official. Its mostly the orthodox that still do it the old fashioned way.

Just a point here....I was raised reformed, but now belong to a conservative temple. I don't know one of my Jewish friends who had their son circumsized in this way. They all have a mohel, who may or may not also be a doctor, do the ritual. I have heard of non Jewish people having the more "modern" procedure.

Englishgent, I feel it is you who are being overly defensive. You accuse Chinensch of hating himself out of nowhere when he has shown no sign whatsoever of guilt, shame or anything similar which might constitute self hatred. You make the ridiculous suggestion that his foreskin might be reattached, which is clearly preposterous (though not completely off base as a possibility) and intended to insult or at least humiliate. You also assume that he hates Jews and Israel, but he has repeatedly stated facts and shown no emotional attachment one way or another to the situation.

It is clear that you feel hurt or offended by his opinions, but I don't think there is a need to. I ask you respectfully to release yourself from your emotional response before posting such comments. We all wish to share ideas here, not to offend. Chinensch's unimpassioned posts are about his observation of Judaism at large and he does not deserve personal attacks for them. Please help us keep things civil in this thread and the forums as a whole.

With all care and respect,

X

Originally Posted by Englishgent

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

guess you're too close to be objective. notice how you say your "children are require to marry Jews" ? sorry to tell you, but the days of arranged marriages and matchmakers are gone, dude. people marry for love now. sometimes for a tax break. and to demand that your children raise their children the way you want them to? how is it anyone's business but theirs how they choose to raise their children.

if your kids decide they're better off as gentiles, will you love them any less? if they decide to raise their children gentile, will you not love your grandkids?

how is it intolerance? well, you are clearly not tolerant of your family making any religious decisions that you don't agree with. how about letting people think for themselves and make their own choices? it's just so terribly offensive to me that anyone would REQUIRE their children to marry for any reason but love.

Originally Posted by xman

One of my brother's is Jewish, living kosher for many years, fluent in Hebrew, bar mitzva and everything. He told me that straight razors are actually not kosher because they have only one blade. I guess it says somewhere in the Torah that two blades (meaning shears, but often loosely interpreted to include twin blades too) should be used to cut whiskers.

X

If it's in the Torah, then that means it's in the first 5 books of the Old Testament. I'll have to look that one up on the Blue Letter Bible search site...

I'm kind of an interesting mix of conservative Christian and Messianic Jewish myself, as I found out more than a year ago that my grandfather (who passed away in 1993) was actually ethnically Jewish, and he and my dear departed grandmother (whom we lost in August of 2005) went to GREAT lengths to conceal this from everyone, including their only daughter (my mother) and grandchildren (my sister and I.)

My mother said when she was growing up she'd occasionally ask her mother why my grandfather's family left Germany in approximately 1845 for Galveston, Texas...and the only answer she ever got was one word, once: "Persecution." And then my grandmother changed the subject quickly.

I'm sure they had good motives, probably to protect us.

I sure miss 'em.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

It's called survival, and ensures the continuation of the Jewish people. It is that simple. Chimensch or anyone else is free to leave our faith and community and marry who they please.

That is his business, but why come onto an internet message board and slate the religion and family he chose to abandon?

I agree with EnglishGent 100%.

Up until 2 years ago, I disagreed with this quite strongly, even though my Jewish friend pointed out quite passionately that "we are dying out!" He was explaining why he would never have married outside of his faith. And he believed that Jews should only marry other Jews, since the numbers of Jews worldwide are dwindling. (He was also kind of slamming Christians for marrying Jews and then raising the kids Christian.)

And I said something like, "Oh, really? So how come you and YOUR wife don't have kids? And you're crying about your brother marrying a Christian and their kids being raised Christian, but how much have you tried to bring a Jewish influence into their lives? And speaking of which, where are all the Jewish missionaries? Y'all leave the 'heavy lifting' of spreading God's Word to us Christians who get ourselves shot, massacred, heads lopped off...how come y'all don't do missionary work if Judaism is so great?"

He had no answer.

Fast-forward to now. I've read more about my Jewish ancestery (1/4, and it's on my mother's side, so ethnically, I AM Jewish.) I understand now that Jewish people have been extremely and unrelentingly persecuted in the last 2,000 years to the extent that they are understandably gun-shy about sticking their necks out to witness or anything.

(Although I still think they should spread God's Word more, even with the persecution risk..and so should Christians.)

God (or G_d as Jews prefer) specifically commanded His people, the Jews, NOT to intermarry. It is in the Torah, which means it is also in the first 5 books of the Christian Old Testament. God's reason for this was because He did not want the other ethnic groups with their idol worship and blasphemies to become a snare to His people (i.e., lead them off track.)

Unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what has happened.

So, yeah, EnglishDude has the right to seek out a Jewish woman to marry if he wants to, and so does anyone else who has any kind of specs in seeking a mate!!!

Originally Posted by xman

Englishgent, I feel it is you who are being overly defensive. You accuse Chinensch of hating himself out of nowhere when he has shown no sign whatsoever of guilt, shame or anything similar which might constitute self hatred. You make the ridiculous suggestion that his foreskin might be reattached, which is clearly preposterous (though not completely off base as a possibility) and intended to insult or at least humiliate. You also assume that he hates Jews and Israel, but he has repeatedly stated facts and shown no emotional attachment one way or another to the situation.

It is clear that you feel hurt or offended by his opinions, but I don't think there is a need to. I ask you respectfully to release yourself from your emotional response before posting such comments. We all wish to share ideas here, not to offend. Chinensch's unimpassioned posts are about his observation of Judaism at large and he does not deserve personal attacks for them. Please help us keep things civil in this thread and the forums as a whole.

With all care and respect,

X

I've made my position clear and that's it . Before you make suggestions as to my conduct I'd suggest that you read some of Chimensch's postings regarding Israel and Judaism in other threads on this site, esp where he staed that all Jews are racist.

You then may understand why I have responded in the way I did.

With all care and respect etc etc