Thread: Is this Americas future?

Here is an interesting piece by Dick Morris who was an adviser and pollster for clinton during his first term! His take is similar to mine, yet he assumes that America will lay down and take it and the Republicans in office will roll over and play dead! The Republicans in office seem to lack any semblance of a spine, so Mr Morris could be right on the money! I have faith in the American people though! Maybe my faith is missplaced or maybe Obama will not take us so far afield! Only time will tell

TheHill.com

be careful what you post,I received a negative feedback because of a post stating that I would rather watch Turner Classic Movies or the Speed channel instead of the inauguration.

I probably shouldn't reply, but come on... That article is just so much opinionated black and white BS that it isn't even funny.

Every paragraph starts with 'Obama will...'
Wouldn't it be fair to wait with attacking him until he actually does one of those things? If he does them at all, that is.

One of the most annoying things about US politics is that everything is either black or white, and the public has no idea how to deal with someone who acknowledges the color 'grey'. Bush was an expert as this. Good and evil, right or wrong, and lacking any grasp on the concept 'nuance'.

So far, Obama has one day in office. And he has already signed the memos and orders that
- guantanamo bay will be closed.
- the US will no longer torture prisoners
- government agencies should comply with freedom of information acts, instead of trying to hide as much information as legally possible,

These are all things that any constitution loving Amercian should rejoice about, after Bush trampled on a lot of your (and other people's) freedoms.
But no. Obama is a big bad socialist, and the very republicans who just had 8 years of time to up the economy, trample over your constitution, and international politics in general are the heroes who should 'rescue' America... right...

So wouldn't it be prudent to judge only on what he actually does, and to understand that issues are rarely black and white?

Originally Posted by Bruno

I probably shouldn't reply, but come on... That article is just so much opinionated black and white BS that it isn't even funny.

Every paragraph starts with 'Obama will...'
Wouldn't it be fair to wait with attacking him until he actually does one of those things? If he does them at all, that is.

One of the most annoying things about US politics is that everything is either black or white, and the public has no idea how to deal with someone who acknowledges the color 'grey'. Bush was an expert as this. Good and evil, right or wrong, and lacking any grasp on the concept 'nuance'.

So far, Obama has one day in office. And he has already signed the memos and orders that
- guantanamo bay will be closed.
- the US will no longer torture prisoners
- government agencies should comply with freedom of information acts, instead of trying to hide as much information as legally possible,

These are all things that any constitution loving Amercian should rejoice about, after Bush trampled on a lot of your (and other people's) freedoms.
But no. Obama is a big bad socialist, and the very republicans who just had 8 years of time to up the economy, trample over your constitution, and international politics in general are the heroes who should 'rescue' America... right...

So wouldn't it be prudent to judge only on what he actually does, and to understand that issues are rarely black and white?

Ahem.

What he said.
One day in office. ONE DAY IN OFFICE. And Obama has already started to wash America of the taint of the last 8 years. Closing Gunatanamo bay. Ending the torture of innocent people.

I'm grateful that we have this chance to make things right.

Personally I do not like the idea of republicans roling over on anything. One of the halmarks american politics has been the debate between two political parties (sometimes as oposed to the debate between sixty-four polticial parties, there are some countries where poltics is this chaotic). Personnaly I do not like the idea of one political party being in total control, we saw that a few years ago with the republicans in control of all three branches of government and I do not like the idea of Democrats doing the same. I would advise congressional republicans to use more of a softer approach to what they want to do then they have in the past but I would advise them to still push for what they want to get done. I would not like to see congressional republicans rolling over. Perhaps a little debate on Obama shutting down Gitmo, perhaps some debate over what obama wants to do.

Originally Posted by JMS

Here is an interesting piece by Dick Morris who was an adviser and pollster for clinton during his first term! His take is similar to mine...

Mark, I don't know what your take is and honestly I don't really care but I see nothing of substance in the piece you linked. Why do you want so badly to see Obama fail?

Originally Posted by JimR

Ending the torture of innocent people.

I know this is a tad off topic, but somehow I don't think waterboarding khalid sheikh mohammed for 30 seconds to get information he wouldn't otherwise give up is torture of an innocent person!

Who made me judge? Nobody. It just seems that way to me

Originally Posted by icedog

Why do you want so badly to see Obama fail?

Your loaded question asks for his take, which you honestly don't care to know anyway. Why?

Also, I share Mark's intent in a thread he created in November regarding his support for the new President:

I can not support many of his ideals but if his intentions are for what he believes are for the best for our country, I can support that!

To me that seems like a good enough basis from which we can have a healthy discussion on how we think the new President's actions may affect the US

Dick Morris has become one of the shrillest neocon voices on the American far-right. He's done a complete 180 since his former association with the Clintons (he was for them before his was against them). All his op ed pieces are designed to appeal to a certain segment of the political right, and this is how he makes his living now.
There are many more thoughtful right-leaning writers than Morris. He's a predictable waste of time, IMHO.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I know this is a tad off topic, but somehow I don't think waterboarding khalid sheikh mohammed for 30 seconds to get information he wouldn't otherwise give up is torture of an innocent person!

Who made me judge? Nobody. It just seems that way to me

The problem is that it isn't jus sheikh mohammed, and it's not just 30 seconds.

The problem is that it's also people who just happen to know the 'wrong' people. People have been abducted by the CIA and transferred to guantanamo bay. They have been tortured, and held without trial or acusation.

There was a person from germany who was abducted to guantanamo, and then kicked out after a year without trial or apology, but only a warning to keep his mouth shut about what happened to him inside.
Those things are inexcusable.

Look, things like that are forbidden by the constitution. So the government either has to amend the constitution to allow torture, or make sure they don't do it.

And this quote has been thrown in my face so often that I am glad I can throw it back:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

Originally Posted by Bruno

The problem is that it isn't jus sheikh mohammed, and it's not just 30 seconds.

Sorry Bruno, I was only referring to the illegal torture allegation. Three terrorists were waterboarded (Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri), and those terrorists were not uniformed soldiers of any nation, nor are they US citizens, etc etc. Also, it only lasts as long as the guy who wants to kill innocent people doesn't talk. It isn't torture for the fun of making some guy who we don't like miserable. Yes, Khalid is reported to have lasted 2 1/2 minutes. And some officers say he sang immediately. One of the other guys lasted 35 seconds. But if that is the problem regarding illegal torture, we simply disagree. (and I am no lawyer)

False imprisonment happens in the US too unfortunately, but we don't close the prisons down. It could certainly be a whole other discussion though

PS what essential liberty am I giving up by interrogating khalid sheik mohammad with waterboarding?
PSPS I wonder if there is already a thread on this subject... I guess I should go look