Thread: Buffalo NY beheading

Amyn, you are certainly correct; unsubstantiated generalization is a bad thing. However, the text below does not help me believe that militant thinking is limited to a few individuals.

Ayatollah Khomeini elaborates on duties for every Muslim

As Khomeini himself put it: “Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world….But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world.”
The goal of this conquest would be to establish the hegemony of Islamic law. As Khomeini put it: “What is the good of us [i.e., the mullahs] asking for the hand of a thief to be severed or an adulteress to be stoned to death when all we can do is recommend such punishments, having no power to implement them?”
Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”


More interesting topics on Islam are on this (strongly biased site): Islamic Terrorism in India

Latest entry on that site: Muslim diplomat in New York charged with beating his wife for more than 15 hours, tells told police his “wife was a dog and he was going to treat her like a dog”

Originally Posted by Amyn

Being the best, the brightest, the strongest, the most powerful, the most wealthy, the best educated does not give one any moral or ethical authority.

There are plenty of well educated, powerful, wealthy and bright Christians who have done hideous things. But I refuse to judge an entire religion based on the actions of a few.

Warren Jeffs and the KKK use the bible to promote their views but they do not represent all Christians.

Now imagine if you gave the keys to US Treasury to KKK and they had unlimited resources, imagine what would happen.

This is exactly what has happened to Islam.

The "Wahabi Sect" of Islam which is a very small sect within Islam but has very radical views but has unlimited resources. Their numbers are small but the wield a lot of influence.

Yes by the Wahabi sect I am talking about the country of Saudi Arabia which has gotten rich from oil, and have unlimited resources. They are a very small group of people who have their hands on the treasure. And we continue to feed this monster and ignore their radical views because we need their oil.

It is unfortunate that the media only protrays these radical views and it is projected as the views of the entire faith.

There are thousand of different sects in Islam. Islam in not a monolithic religion there are different cultures and traditions. Unfortunately many in the west simply do not know about the diversity.

Excellent point and I agree; we don't know about the religion's various diversities! I gather the fact that you've got a good understanding of the religion. Would you care to share your knowledge?

1. What are Imams to the religion and why are there so many constantly contradicting each other? Are they the leaders of the individual sects then?

2. What is the significance, if any, of Jesus?

If you'll answer them I'm sure we've all got some really good questions?

Damn good question Sparq

Originally Posted by jmueller8

Excellent point and I agree; we don't know about the religion's various diversities! I gather the fact that you've got a good understanding of the religion. Would you care to share your knowledge?

1. What are Imams to the religion and why are there so many constantly contradicting each other? Are they the leaders of the individual sects then?

2. What is the significance, if any, of Jesus?

If you'll answer them I'm sure we've all got some really good questions?

1. an Imam is somewhere between a bishop and a judge, to draw a western analogy. the imam's job is to study the quran, pray, and then interpret unclear passages. Just as the Nicene council did for the old testament. basically, the imam will, from time to time, announce a modern day application of a certain passage. also, if members of his community disagree on how a passage should be interpreted, he will settle the dispute. there are many imams and many opinions, just as there are many protestant denominations and many bishops and pastors that disagree. the imam's role is defined primarily in a geopgraphic sense, he will be responsible to people in his town or district or whatever.

2. most Muslim denominations regard the nazarene as a prophet, but a lesser one than Mohammed, and in no way divine.

Originally Posted by sparq

Amyn, you are certainly correct; unsubstantiated generalization is a bad thing. However, the text below does not help me believe that militant thinking is limited to a few individuals.

Ayatollah Khomeini elaborates on duties for every Muslim
....

Note that Iran is pretty much a dictatorship, despite them having some sort of elections. Russia has elections as well, just as Cuba or Venezuela, China, etc. yet in all these countries the opposition is kept by the government extremely weak. I don't think it is fair to extend a country leadership's position to their culture.
In fact some of these people don't appreciate the US practice of waging war to spread democracy. I don't think I can blame them for that.
Probably the only democratic predominantly muslim country is Turkey. It is also a secular state just like the west.

My country has roughly a 10% muslim minority, which has been oppressed for the last 100+ years (the rest 90% is nominaly christian but atheist/agnostic/don't care is probably a better description). I am not aware of any single case of a 'honor killing'. Their attitude towards women isn't all that different than my grandfather's. At the same time they are one of the most hospitable people I have encountered, and this has been a recurring theme from my friends who have travelled in various muslim countries.
I wouldn't like to adopt their culture, but I can't call it a bad one either.

Originally Posted by jmueller8

1. What are Imams to the religion and why are there so many constantly contradicting each other? Are they the leaders of the individual sects then?

2. What is the significance, if any, of Jesus?

I don't know as much as Amyn, but keeping in mind that islam is fairly decentralized
1) imams are religious leaders, something like priests. they would be leaders in the local community. in fact the wikipedia is probably a good place to get an idea Imam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
it's the same thing in christianity - each group redefines the meanings in their own way. catolicism is centralized so that there is official dogma, but just think of all the protestant groups and how different they can be from each other on various doctrinal points

2) he's one of the prophets before muhamed. probably not more significant to muslims than some of the old testament prohpets are to christians.

Originally Posted by jockeys

1. an Imam is somewhere between a bishop and a judge, to draw a western analogy. the imam's job is to study the quran, pray, and then interpret unclear passages. Just as the Nicene council did for the old testament. basically, the imam will, from time to time, announce a modern day application of a certain passage. also, if members of his community disagree on how a passage should be interpreted, he will settle the dispute. there are many imams and many opinions, just as there are many protestant denominations and many bishops and pastors that disagree. the imam's role is defined primarily in a geopgraphic sense, he will be responsible to people in his town or district or whatever.

2. most Muslim denominations regard the nazarene as a prophet, but a lesser one than Mohammed, and in no way divine.

Alright: who the hell are you and what have you done with Jockeys?

Regional then! Is there one Imam per region and is there a central or senior Imam to settle disputes between the regional Imams? Oh; and the Imam that said it's ok to marry a 9 year old.. that decree affects only that region then or can other regions abide by it too?

Thanks Jockeys!

Originally Posted by jmueller8

Alright: who the hell are you and what have you done with Jockeys?

Regional then! Is there one Imam per region and is there a central or senior Imam to settle disputes between the regional Imams? Oh; and the Imam that said it's ok to marry a 9 year old.. that decree affects only that region then or can other regions abide by it too?

Thanks Jockeys!

1. ??? what do you mean?
2. there is not a set number of imams. when a community needs one, one will be elected by his peers and sometimes appointed by an imam further up the chain
3. there is a very loose heirarchy, but nothing formal. sunni imams will usually not deal with shiite imams will not deal with baath imams and so on.
3. an imam's decree's influence depends on the influence of the imam. a local village imam will generally only be listened to be his village. some of the imams at the mosques in large cities will have a broader influence.
4. afaik, there is no set structure like there is in many protestant denominations.

Originally Posted by sparq

Amyn, you are certainly correct; unsubstantiated generalization is a bad thing. However, the text below does not help me believe that militant thinking is limited to a few individuals.

Ayatollah Khomeini elaborates on duties for every Muslim

As Khomeini himself put it: “Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world….But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world.”
The goal of this conquest would be to establish the hegemony of Islamic law. As Khomeini put it: “What is the good of us [i.e., the mullahs] asking for the hand of a thief to be severed or an adulteress to be stoned to death when all we can do is recommend such punishments, having no power to implement them?”
Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”


More interesting topics on Islam are on this (strongly biased site): Islamic Terrorism in India

Latest entry on that site: Muslim diplomat in New York charged with beating his wife for more than 15 hours, tells told police his “wife was a dog and he was going to treat her like a dog”

This is some very good dialogue...

Ok so let talk about the Khomeini. The things you quote him as saying, it simply cannot take it at face value.

It is important to find out his motive. Why he said what he says and why it worked.

Khomeini used religion a tool to capture power.

It is a very common ploy happens in politics all the time, you will agree. Politicians and leaders play on people's religion all the time, and in doing so evoke a lot of emotion, and the consequences of which are suffered for decades and centuries.

So to further prove my point let me point out some history. Before the Khomeini took over Iran it was ruled by the Shah of Iran who was certainly a brutal dictator, with very liberal religious views. In fact he was not religious at all. There was plenty of freedom in Iran as far as you did not say anything bad about he Shah. The Shah was strongly supported by the West and the United States.

Western powers the British and French had colonized the middle east for a very long time, and there was a great deal of humiliation that people of middle east felt / and still feel from this colonization. Anytime they see any western power meddling in their affairs they are not very happy about it.

Khomeini in his ploy to capture power used these situations to his advantage, painting the Shah as a "heathen" and a puppit of the west to evoke peoples emotions. The people who were suffering because of the brutal dicatorship of the Shah did have a revolution and did overthrow the Shah.

So knowing what you know now and the context of the situation, now analyze the words of Khomeini and you will understand it much better.


They say when in doubt follow the money.. For the middle east situations I say when in doubt follow change of power. That is what it boils down to.

I hope you do not believe that Khomeini, a man with this much power , was doing this out of the goodness of his heart for his people? That would be really naive.

Originally Posted by gugi

1) imams are religious leaders, something like priests. they would be leaders in the local community. in fact the wikipedia is probably a good place to get an idea Imam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
it's the same thing in christianity - each group redefines the meanings in their own way. catolicism is centralized so that there is official dogma, but just think of all the protestant groups and how different they can be from each other on various doctrinal points.

2) he's one of the prophets before muhamed. probably not more significant to muslims than some of the old testament prohpets are to christians.

Gugi is correct
1. In essence the imam is a religious leader. Similar to the priest in a church, a rabbi in a synagogue.
There is a difference between Shia's and Sunni's but that is a discussion for another day. You must first understand the difference between Shias and Sunnis. Difference exist because they are either Shia or Sunni , but also because they are individuals and their views can differ. The cultures around them influences their way of thought.


2. Jesus is a prophet just like Mohammed was a prophet. The teachings of Jesus are important nobody who is a Muslim can deny that, but obviously Mohammed has much more signficance to the Muslims since they believe he was the last prophet.

Muslims believe both had access to the divine, just that Jesus was not the son of God. Muslims believe God cannot be defined as a physical Being, and no physical being can come from him. He is everywhere.

Originally Posted by jockeys

1. ??? what do you mean?

A feeble attempt at humor! Just meant I didn't know you had this knowledge that's all.