Thread: Miss California causes waves!

I can't get over how opinionated people can be. Why speak out against anything that doesn't affect you? I see folks who want to limit freedoms of others the same as those who ride in the passing lane and don't pass. Hey, if it's all the same to you, move over and give the other people a chance to move forward!

Let's look at the different angles

Legal
Currently there is a legal concept, defined as marriage, and with a godawful lot of things tied to it: ownership clauses, inheritance, taxes, power of attorney, etc.

If 2 partners of the same gender want to commit to an equivalent union, there is currently no way to do this without using the marriage concept. There are things as civil unions, but they are not equivalent by far.
We could introduce a second concept, and flesh it out with all the bells and whistles, just like marriage, but it would be complex, difficult, and utterly pointless because now we have 2 identical things with identical definitions, but with different names.

From a legal pov, redefining marriage to allow same sex unions is the better solution

Religious
Most of us are lucky enough to live in a secular state. Religion is a non issue in the legal status of same sex marriage

Tradition
It used to be that a man should be obeyed by his wife (instead of the other way around )
And he could give her a good beating if she didn't listen.
And he could rape her if he didn't get any.
And he could have slaves. And beat them too.
In all these cases, there were bound to be a lot of people arguing that 'it was tradition' and 'we've always done things this way'. And it's a good thing that people didn't let tradition stand in their way to change these things.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Marriage: Happens in your religious institution of choice.
Then, you go to the town hall (with your husband or wife, regardless of your gender), and sign up for "Civil Rights That Come With Being A Legally Recognized Partnership." The state has not intruded on "marriage" but will give the rights to everyone. If your church won't do gay marriages, so be it. I'll find one that will. The state doesn't have to "recognize" ANY marriages. Just the rights that come with the bond.

Just another example of why the state and religion really shouldn't hang out that much.

Yep, that's how I think it should be done as well. If heterosexual couples get certain rights once they get 'married' the homosexuals should be able to get the same rights as well. I am pretty sure if you're gay there are plenty of states you can't claim your partner as a 'dependent' on your taxes (you can't do it on your federal taxes for sure), or you won't get the same legal protections if you 'divorce' them later on.
Ideally I would prefer everybody have to jump through the same hoops, that's why I like the scenario above.

Of course the state already has a lot of restrictions on marriages - polygamy and minors for example are not something that is acceptable, even though few hundred years ago it was common practice. I guess the need of parental consent for marrying if under 18 is the equivalent of the family arranged marriages of the old days, so it's probably not all that different, but it's certainly not the social norm anymore.

It would've been so much better if Ms. California has said 'I believe *my* marriage should be between me and a man'.

Originally Posted by icedog

I can't get over how opinionated people can be. Why speak out against anything that doesn't affect you? I see folks who want to limit freedoms of others the same as those who ride in the passing lane and don't pass. Hey, if it's all the same to you, move over and give the other people a chance to move forward!

Sounds like you have your opinions also.

Originally Posted by Bruno

It used to be that a man should be obeyed by his wife (instead of the other way around )

TY. I thought it was just me.

BTW. I was catering at various events over the last two years since I inseminated the Validator and a few of those were gay wedding receptions, some up from the US, and each of those were truly wonderful weddings to work. Great people really enjoying their special day, appreciating in a way some heterosexual couples sometimes don't, the value of the gathering of family and friends and the special quality of the day. They are people in love, just like I love my wife. How is my experience really so different than theirs? Because I like different plumbing? Seems to me that western society has better things to do than waste time making sure we can deny minorities the rights the rest of us enjoy for whatever reason we feel most comfortable with even if the minority is perfectly harmless with them.

X

Originally Posted by JMS

Sounds like you have your opinions also.

I knew someone would make this statement. I'm glad it was you Mark.
Yes I have my opinions. My most prevalent opinion is that I don't think my opinion matters and I don't really give a rat's ass what your opinion is. I also have the opinion that what makes two consenting adults live a happy, peaceful life and does not interfere with anyone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness is none of my nor anyone else's business and should not be infringed upon by any legislation.

Originally Posted by xman

TY. I thought it was just me.

BTW. I was catering at various events over the last two years since I inseminated the Validator and a few of those were gay wedding receptions, some up from the US, and each of those were truly wonderful weddings to work. Great people really enjoying their special day, appreciating in a way some heterosexual couples sometimes don't, the value of the gathering of family and friends and the special quality of the day. They are people in love, just like I love my wife. How is my experience really so different than theirs? Because I like different plumbing? Seems to me that western society has better things to do than waste time making sure we can deny minorities the rights the rest of us enjoy for whatever reason we feel most comfortable with even if the minority is perfectly harmless with them.

X

All fine and dandy X but do you feel she has a right to her view point? Was the question out of place? please explain. Lastly, since she was asked the question, should she not answer it honestly?

Originally Posted by icedog

I knew someone would make this statement. I'm glad it was you Mark.
Yes I have my opinions. My most prevalent opinion is that I don't think my opinion matters and I don't really give a rat's ass what your opinion is. I also have the opinion that what makes two consenting adults live a happy, peaceful life and does not interfere with anyone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness is none of my nor anyone else's business and should not be infringed upon by any legislation.

I am certain you do think it matters. Why else voice it then?

Whether her opinion matters or not, whether it is a proper opinion or not, the question remains as to whether she should have been asked the question in the first place, and, since she was asked, should she not answer honestly?

Originally Posted by JMS

All fine and dandy X but do you feel she has a right to her view point? Was the question out of place? please explain. Lastly, since she was asked the question, should she not answer it honestly?

Sure she has a right to her point of view. That I disagree with her doesn't change that.

Yup, question had no place in this contest. And whether she wants to expose her bigotry publicly in a forum that very well could cost her the crown (tiara?) if she does...that is entirely up to her.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Sure she has a right to her point of view.

Of course she has a right to non violent opinions as do the attendants. They told her that her opinions were unacceptable in their creepy, weird beauty pageant sub culture. Now, if her opinions included rounding up those people who want same sex marriage, well that would be unacceptable. Where's the line? Somewhere in between. Moronic, bigoted ideas will out. We can't all be arrested for being stupid, but we can't let stupidity destroy liberty either.

X