Thread: Health Care in the USA

Originally Posted by honedright

Just wondering, in a national health plan where everyone is required (or forced) to participate, what about those needing more services than others?

Say someone with type I diabetes as opposed to another with no chronic illness. Where is the value in that? One receives much more service yet both are paying the same into the system. Who gets to keep the difference in costs?

In a free market system one can change plans, alter their level of coverage, or opt out all together, if they choose, should they not be happy with their particular plan and/or the way it's run.

As has been previously pointed out the participation of all will help to keep the overall rates down. It is not a question of what might be better for one individual than another but for the improved well being of all.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

As has been previously pointed out the participation of all will help to keep the overall rates down. It is not a question of what might be better for one individual than another but for the improved well being of all.

I thought the whole American idea of individual freedom had everything to do with what is better for one individual.

I don't see how one's well being, or their pocket book, is improved if they are getting less, while another is getting more, all at the same price.

To each according to his needs, eh?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Yes, you're wrong on that to a degree, but the bill is experiencing some changes as the bureaucrats earn their pay. The deal (I think) was that after five years, you'd have to be insured by either the government plan or a government approved plan, or a grandfathered plan that you held before the bill passed. Employers have to participate or be taxed at varying degrees depending on the size of the company. Citizens have to participate or be taxed.

The government would decide what plans qualify to be offered to the people, and also how the government insurance would cover its customers.

Sounds similar to the minimum wage. In the early and mid sixties I worked for employers who didn't employ enough workers to be required to pay minimum wage. I worked at a couple of jobs for 0.45 cents per hour and I never made $100 per week until I began doing union ironwork in 1969.

I would say that minimum wage is a good thing based on the track record of employers in countries that still have children working in sweat shop conditions as they did in this country before the government passed child labor laws.

Originally Posted by honedright

Just wondering, in a national health plan where everyone is required (or forced) to participate, what about those needing more services than others?

Say someone with type I diabetes as opposed to another with no chronic illness. Where is the value in that? One receives much more service yet both are paying the same into the system. Who gets to keep the difference in costs?
In a free market system one can change plans, alter their level of coverage, or opt out all together, if they choose, should they not be happy with their particular plan and/or the way it's run.

This is what we have now. The healthy pay for this sick in return for a promise to take care of their bills if something happens. The insurance company or the goverment keeps the difference or eats the loss.

Not to be combative, but very few Americans can change their plans or alter their coverage. The employers choose the plans and most of us don't have that many options. The choices are limited. You can opt out at your peril. One moderate illness would put most Americans into bankruptcy - health care bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy if I'm not mistaken.

Health care is unlike any other industry. Very few have access to the data they would need to make a "rational" decision. Also, the "supplier" of services is the one dictating how much a "consumer" needs to purchase. There are limited providers of services further curtailing choice (eg. hospitals). Health care doesn't really work like typical market driven industries.

Jordan

Originally Posted by honedright

I thought the whole American idea of individual freedom had everything to do with what is better for one individual.

I don't see how one's well being, or their pocket book, is improved if they are getting less, while another is getting more, all at the same price.

To each according to his needs, eh?

Depends on where your head is at I guess.

A beautiful afternoon with some time on my hands; I'll throw my hat into the ring.

Some background on myself: I'm 20 years old. Once considered becoming a Poly-sci or history major because I enjoy politics and a Democratic Republic. I do watch Fox News as well as CNN, MSNBC, CSPAN, and NPR. I did not vote for Obama and legitimately hopes he improves the country. However; from my understanding of free economics and history and our current situation, Government health care is not the way to go!

The United States is based off of a free market economy. The Founding Fathers believed in a hard working, discerning and loyal pool of citizens. They used their hard fought freedom and education to put together what we know to day as the United States system of a Democratic Republic. (More on this later)

The Constitution outlines the responsibilities of government and the powers which they have. They feared a government of limitless power and a system of mob rule. The legislation in office right now about healthcare seeks to limit your right to choose who provides your health care and corners the market for the government. President Obama is correct that you can keep your private health insurance if you so choose. However, after a government option is presented, if you want to switch your health insurance provider, you can only choose the government option. Want to know how I know. Read page 16 of the 1000 some-odd page bill that is proposed. All comments are welcome in regards to that page of the legislation.

So if no one opts for the government health care system, all private systems will be ok and things will go on like always, until you want to change? That is correct, to a point. Three things are going to happen if this passes:
1) The government will enter the private sector (even more then with their control over GM... different topic, same story)
2)ALL people in the US will be provided health care... What about illegal immigrants?
3)The price tag of this venture will be in the Trillions of dollars. My guess will be 10 Trillion if everything is said and done.

With the government entering the private sector, that kills a free market economy. Think of it like Wal-Mart. When a Wal-Mart moves into an area, all "Mom and Pop store" businesses are hurt. Wal-Mart has millions and billions of dollars to spend on a new store. Mom and Pops don't. More people will go to Wal-Mart because it is a larger store and they can get everything they need in one place. Mom and Pops are no longer receiving profits and aren't spending those profits on their business. With Wal-Mart in the area, many of these shops will close because they can't make a profit. This isn't the exact same as health care, but a good analogy.

Private Health care providers are like mom and pop stores. There are enough of them that you can shop around and find one that will cater to you and give you the best price. Often times this is let up to your employer. Private providers have to have competitive prices because they need customers to make money. If the Government steps in with this legislature, you will no longer be able to shop around. They will MAKE YOU (you won't have the FREEDOM TO) choose the government option if you want to have any other care. The government doesn't have to provide competitive prices because they will have everyone's business and they need enough money to run the entire thing. #1 explained

The problem with health care for everyone, is that everyone won't be contributing to it. If an illegal immigrant (any of the, maybe, ~22 million) walks into a hospital and wants medical treatment, they can get it. It's in the bill! READ IT or ask you legislator if they read it. So a person that doesn't pay taxes or contributes to the health care option gets to use it. Where will that cost be made up? You guessed it... Premiums or Taxes (they'll choose). That comes out of your wallets!!! If you think I am lying or making up a conspiracy theory, read through the Obama health care bill. Better yet, ask your legislator! See what he/she responds. #2 explained.

So with no other competitors to check the governments prices and alot of people that don't pay into the system to take care of, how much will it cost. That's a good question. Would you trust the institution that regulates Medicare and Medicade to regulate everyones health options?

Medicare's night of the living dead masks larger horror - Opinion - USATODAY.com
http://www.insurancefraud.org/images...ives_chart.png
Or try this: Google "Medicare Fraud" or "Dead People on Medicare" and see for yourself.

The system we have now is pretty darn good. It's not on the verge of failing apart. Does it need some work? YES! Does it need this overhaul? H3LL NO! I will not trouble ye who read this entire post with what I would suggest to strengthen the system already, but might post it a little later on. Help keep America strong! BE A PATRIOT. Contact your legislator, ask questions and make your own decisions. Don't let the government make decisions for you. Did the Founding Fathers, who devised this great nation, ask King George to make sure he was making decisions in the best interest of America? YES! Did they react when they found out the answer? You're free from England aren't you... there's your answer.

Have a wonderful day!

Originally Posted by honedright

I, and several people I know, have expensive mortgages. Maybe we need a government plan to address that issue too.

Unfortunately they are not expensive enough to assure you gov. assistance. Next time think bigger.

Originally Posted by honedright

Just wondering, in a national health plan where everyone is required (or forced) to participate, what about those needing more services than others?

It should be obvious that in ANY insurance the risk is spread around and some participants get a lot more than what they put in while others get a lot less. The only way to be fair is pay for what you use. Everybody is free to practice this right now, but as far as I can tell the fraction of those who do so is negligible. Perhaps you can illuminate us why is this?

I applaud you for and I'm encouraged by your vim, vigor and willingness to be informed at your age. Seriously, if most 20 year olds had the motivation you do to educate yourself over the issues that affect you and the nation, I'd feel much more secure and......the government would be scared out of its gourd!

Thank you for posting your opinions here.

Chris L

Originally Posted by slt5103

A beautiful afternoon with some time on my hands; I'll throw my hat into the ring.

Some background on myself: I'm 20 years old. Once considered becoming a Poly-sci or history major because I enjoy politics and a Democratic Republic. I do watch Fox News as well as CNN, MSNBC, CSPAN, and NPR. I did not vote for Obama and legitimately hopes he improves the country. However; from my understanding of free economics and history and our current situation, Government health care is not the way to go!

The United States is based off of a free market economy. The Founding Fathers believed in a hard working, discerning and loyal pool of citizens. They used their hard fought freedom and education to put together what we know to day as the United States system of a Democratic Republic. (More on this later)

The Constitution outlines the responsibilities of government and the powers which they have. They feared a government of limitless power and a system of mob rule. The legislation in office right now about healthcare seeks to limit your right to choose who provides your health care and corners the market for the government. President Obama is correct that you can keep your private health insurance if you so choose. However, after a government option is presented, if you want to switch your health insurance provider, you can only choose the government option. Want to know how I know. Read page 16 of the 1000 some-odd page bill that is proposed. All comments are welcome in regards to that page of the legislation.

So if no one opts for the government health care system, all private systems will be ok and things will go on like always, until you want to change? That is correct, to a point. Three things are going to happen if this passes:
1) The government will enter the private sector (even more then with their control over GM... different topic, same story)
2)ALL people in the US will be provided health care... What about illegal immigrants?
3)The price tag of this venture will be in the Trillions of dollars. My guess will be 10 Trillion if everything is said and done.

With the government entering the private sector, that kills a free market economy. Think of it like Wal-Mart. When a Wal-Mart moves into an area, all "Mom and Pop store" businesses are hurt. Wal-Mart has millions and billions of dollars to spend on a new store. Mom and Pops don't. More people will go to Wal-Mart because it is a larger store and they can get everything they need in one place. Mom and Pops are no longer receiving profits and aren't spending those profits on their business. With Wal-Mart in the area, many of these shops will close because they can't make a profit. This isn't the exact same as health care, but a good analogy.

Private Health care providers are like mom and pop stores. There are enough of them that you can shop around and find one that will cater to you and give you the best price. Often times this is let up to your employer.

They are no longer like mom and and pop stores. There has been enormous consolidation in health plans over the past 10-15 years - I know, I've been through the mergers! You now have a few huge companies dominating the market - Wellpoint, United, Aetna, Humana, to some extent Cigna (although there are rumors that Cigna will be purchased from time to time). I might have missed one or two. There are still a few regional players, but they are being bought up by the big boys and I see no reason this will not continue. How can you shop around when your employer (this is the case for most of us) dictates a few choices? - they also price the less "desirable" plans very high to discourage people from signing up with them.

Private providers have to have competitive prices because they need customers to make money.

I assume you mean health care providers. Since the fees are dictated/contracted by health plans or Medicare/Medicaid, setting prices means nothing. For most of their patients, the prices are determined by the payer contract. They rely on "quality", service, referral relationships, and hospital/system affiliations to get patients.

If the Government steps in with this legislature, you will no longer be able to shop around. They will MAKE YOU (you won't have the FREEDOM TO) choose the government option if you want to have any other care. The government doesn't have to provide competitive prices because they will have every one's business and they need enough money to run the entire thing. #1 explained

The problem with health care for everyone, is that everyone won't be contributing to it. If an illegal immigrant (any of the, maybe, ~22 million) walks into a hospital and wants medical treatment, they can get it.

This is de facto the way it is now. Hospital ERs cannot turn anyone away regardless of their ability to pay or their immigration status. In fact, they are required to hire and interpreter to translate for them. Think about how much it costs to have an interpreter available for every language! You and I pay for it now - one way or another. I've heard of cases where sick people fly in from other countries where they can't afford care. Then they take a cab to the hospital and check in through the ER. Then they spend months in the hospital on our dime because there is no mechanism for the hospital to discharge them if they need ongoing care - dialysis, sub-acute care etc. There's no place to send them and they can't be put on the street.

It's in the bill! READ IT or ask you legislator if they read it. So a person that doesn't pay taxes or contributes to the health care option gets to use it. Where will that cost be made up? You guessed it... Premiums or Taxes (they'll choose). That comes out of your wallets!!! If you think I am lying or making up a conspiracy theory, read through the Obama health care bill. Better yet, ask your legislator! See what he/she responds. #2 explained.

So with no other competitors to check the governments prices and alot of people that don't pay into the system to take care of, how much will it cost. That's a good question. Would you trust the institution that regulates Medicare and Medicaid to regulate everyone's health options?

Medicare's night of the living dead masks larger horror - Opinion - USATODAY.com
http://www.insurancefraud.org/images...ives_chart.png
Or try this: Google "Medicare Fraud" or "Dead People on Medicare" and see for yourself.

The system we have now is pretty darn good. It's not on the verge of failing apart. Does it need some work? YES! Does it need this overhaul? H3LL NO!

I disagree. The rate of cost increase is not sustainable. Employers can't afford to continue paying for their employee's health plans and workers can't bear the increasing burden as employers shift more of the costs onto them. When I was your age, I had a great health plan and it cost me about $30 a month in premiums. That same plan would cost me about $400-$500 a month now. I was making about $21K a year then. That was 20 years ago. The salary of that position hasn't gone up much - certainly not enough to cover that cost along with housing, fuel, food, taxes etc. Think about it.

I will not trouble ye who read this entire post with what I would suggest to strengthen the system already, but might post it a little later on. Help keep America strong! BE A PATRIOT. Contact your legislator, ask questions and make your own decisions. Don't let the government make decisions for you. Did the Founding Fathers, who devised this great nation, ask King George to make sure he was making decisions in the best interest of America? YES! Did they react when they found out the answer? You're free from England aren't you... there's your answer.

Have a wonderful day!

I don't know if a gov. system is the best or not. It's a terribly complicated issue. I don't know what the answer is, but something has to change.

Jordan

Originally Posted by gugi

Unfortunately they are not expensive enough to assure you gov. assistance. Next time think bigger.

REALLY?? Ha! In that case maybe you'd like to pay my mortgage for me!!