Thread: Health Care in the USA

Originally Posted by gugi

Everybody is free to practice this right now, but as far as I can tell the fraction of those who do so is negligible. Perhaps you can illuminate us why is this?

Easy: Fear - not usually the best motive for rational action.

Originally Posted by jnich67

This is what we have now. The healthy pay for this sick in return for a promise to take care of their bills if something happens. The insurance company or the goverment keeps the difference or eats the loss.

Not to be combative, but very few Americans can change their plans or alter their coverage. The employers choose the plans and most of us don't have that many options. The choices are limited. You can opt out at your peril. One moderate illness would put most Americans into bankruptcy - health care bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy if I'm not mistaken.

Health care is unlike any other industry. Very few have access to the data they would need to make a "rational" decision. Also, the "supplier" of services is the one dictating how much a "consumer" needs to purchase. There are limited providers of services further curtailing choice (eg. hospitals). Health care doesn't really work like typical market driven industries.

Jordan

I work with lot's of people every day (hundreds) and I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of folks out there who are dumber than a box of rocks.

That being said, in a free society, stupid people must be allowed to make stupid mistakes. Doesn't mean that a few (or a lot) of them can't be enlightened. Maybe if the schools would actually start teaching....

But I've noticed in this thread what I consider nothing but contempt for the abilities of individuals. What's the problem with allowing each individual the ability to have ownership of all of their decisions? So what if some go out and do stupid things? Afraid you'll be stuck with the bill? What about letting the churches and charitable organizations do their job? Hell, if the government didn't think it knew better how to disburse our money for social programs, I bet there'd be a lot more of us with money to donate to charities, and I think we'd do it. A lot more than we already do. I don't believe the American people are selfish.

Also, I believe that the "free market" is so inundated and mixed up with government intervention/ regulation, that it can't work the way it's supposed to. If it did, our pocket books would determine how the health care industry operates.

Ok, I'm off of my

Originally Posted by honedright

REALLY?? Ha! In that case maybe you'd like to pay my mortgage for me!!

sure, but i thought you really hated being dependent on anybody else


i think that's indeed the main concern, getting stuck with the bill, which keeps rising. like it or not the health care is not like a mortgage, it's much closer to the right to life and most human beings are very uncomfortable with the idea of leaving other human beings die when they could've helped it being avoided. charitable organizations are fine, but i'm not convinced the american society is willing to rely on them only. the ones i've seen from close rely on government funding and while i also think americans are very generous i am pretty sure that their financial situation is a very small factor on their charitable contributions, so i don't buy into the theory that if they had more money they'll be giving more to charity.
and the majority of charities that are churches have enormous overhead - it puts the government to shame.

Originally Posted by gugi

sure, but i thought you really hated being dependent on anybody else

but yer special....

Originally Posted by honedright

but yer special....

i am, am i not...

so yes, please send me all the bills, the social security numbers, mother maiden names and other pertinent info of you and everybody else of your friends who want to take advantage of this one-time opportunity. the deeds may come in handy too...

it'll be all taken care of, no worries.

Originally Posted by honedright

I work with lot's of people every day (hundreds) and I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of folks out there who are dumber than a box of rocks.

That being said, in a free society, stupid people must be allowed to make stupid mistakes. Doesn't mean that a few (or a lot) of them can't be enlightened. Maybe if the schools would actually start teaching....

But I've noticed in this thread what I consider nothing but contempt for the abilities of individuals. What's the problem with allowing each individual the ability to have ownership of all of their decisions? So what if some go out and do stupid things? Afraid you'll be stuck with the bill? What about letting the churches and charitable organizations do their job? Hell, if the government didn't think it knew better how to disburse our money for social programs, I bet there'd be a lot more of us with money to donate to charities, and I think we'd do it. A lot more than we already do. I don't believe the American people are selfish.

Also, I believe that the "free market" is so inundated and mixed up with government intervention/ regulation, that it can't work the way it's supposed to. If it did, our pocket books would determine how the health care industry operates.

Ok, I'm off of my

You know your 100% correct. Why just look back to the early 20th century and late 19th century before there were any gov't regulations or social programs-a strictly hands off approach towards business and a much weaker govt.

back then all those super wealthy corporations took good care of their workers with great wages and great benefits. heck who needs medicare and social security everyone saved for their own needs and everyone retired wealthy and healthy and lived long lives. People who didn't turn out so good were just lazy shiftless people who deserved what they got. What you sow you shall reap eh? Sick, disabled? Beg for you livelihood.

What? you say its different now that could never happen in this day and age. really? Think again.

yep your 100% correct we need to return to those thrilling days of yesteryear.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You know your 100% correct. Why just look back to the early 20th century and late 19th century before there were any gov't regulations or social programs-a strictly hands off approach towards business and a much weaker govt.

back then all those super wealthy corporations took good care of their workers with great wages and great benefits. heck who needs medicare and social security everyone saved for their own needs and everyone retired wealthy and healthy and lived long lives. People who didn't turn out so good were just lazy shiftless people who deserved what they got. What you sow you shall reap eh? Sick, disabled? Beg for you livelihood.

What? you say its different now that could never happen in this day and age. really? Think again.

yep your 100% correct we need to return to those thrilling days of yesteryear.

Why so extreme?

Exactly!!! THANK YOU!

If the government would get their hands out of the business and stop making more paper work, things would be cheaper.

If insurance would really be INSURANCE and not pay for everything even though it isn't an emergency, things would be cheaper.

If doctor's visits were pay out of pocket, doctors would have to fight to compete for the best care at the best price, which again would make things cheaper.

The economy, health care, and insurance would be much better off if things got simplified and direct, instead of more bureaucratic and regulated.

And Jnich67, thanks for your insights. You are right about all the mergers. I remember my dad's company going through a crap load of them. Even with the merger's they still shopped around for the cheapest one. Which they are actually using a regional one like you said. Although that regional one is gaining steam and slowly kicking the big guys in the butts in PA. That's the way free market economies work. Provide the best care and the lowest prices and leave the consumers decide. There are a bunch of choices out there, because there's a very large insurance company book that the doctor has to go through to find out what your plan details. I have a few friends in medicine; they love that book. HA!

The illegal immigrant argument is also correct; however, the government insurance will also cover non-emergency services. So not only the emergency operations and surgeries, but also the routine medical check ups and procedures will be covered by John Q Taxpayer. That money will be made up somewhere in the wonderful web of premiums or taxes.

You years of $30 premiums are definitely still attainable. The way insurance was originally conceived was to insure against bigger operations and other unforeseeable things. Now, insurance is suppose to cover everything. The insurance companies need to raise premiums to hire people to go through all the paper work that is sent because of one doctors appointment. What happened to the days when you went in and gave the doctor $40 bucks and he made you better. I would rather pay $40 doctors visits and $30 premiums then pay $10, insured doctors visits and $300-400 premiums. Those are the trade offs. I like the former rather then the latter.

Originally Posted by slt5103

What happened to the days when you went in and gave the doctor $40 bucks and he made you better. I would rather pay $40 doctors visits and $30 premiums then pay $10, insured doctors visits and $300-400 premiums. Those are the trade offs. I like the former rather then the latter.

Who is your doctor? Two years ago I went in for my first checkup (uninsured) in nine years. It cost me $200.00 with the bloodwork. A clean bill of health and when I turned 60 I decided it might be prudent to get insurance and I did. It started out at $460.00 per month and 6 months later when I went back for the same check up to the same doctor it cost $25.00 co pay. The insurance went up just a couple of months ago to $560.00 per month. Not because of any claims but because they can.

So if an uninsured person goes in for that checkup he is paying almost ten times what the doctor agrees to when you're covered with in this case blue cross. I was listening to Howard Dean and Bill Frist on Charlie Rose tonight. They don't agree on everything but they do agree that the system is broken and needs to be fixed.

Bill Frist (former senate majority leader of the republicans) pointed out that uninsured people die sooner. I wonder why that is since the health care is so great in this country ? Than again maybe they deserve it for making poor decisions ?

Well why do you think the doctors office can charge that??? Because the insurance companies will pay for it. If insurance companies no longer cover regular doctors check ups, do you think the doctors office would still charge that?? It is just that, INSURANCE!!! Insurance is suppose to help you cover unforeseen situations. A doctors visit is planned and scheduled in advance; having to be take to the hospital with a broken arm isn't. The broken arm requires procedures that aren't normally done. A check up and blood work are pretty normal medical occurrences, so why are they insured against? If they weren't insured would doctors be able to charge that much? No. It's the free market at work.