Thread: GOD, COUNTRY, DUTY AND HONOR

I don't know if it is historically correct but in the movie Sergeant York there is a scene where he feels he is a conscientious objector and discusses it with his minister. His minister explains the reasons for the war and he goes and of course wins the Congressional Medal Of Honor.

What I am getting at is that regardless of religious persuasion anyone who is able mentally and physically could be drafted. They might be able to get a deferral if they fulfilled the military's criteria for a conscientious objector .... whatever that is .... but not just because they happened to be a Quaker or a Buddhist. I don't know about Quakers but Buddhists in Sri Lanka are no slouches when it comes to war.

Sorry guys I know you are trying here, but honestly all the talk about other religions and whether they fight or not is really not helping my being stumped...

If it is a true teaching of the Koran that a Muslim cannot war on another Muslim then we have a small problem because they have been killing each other for 1000's of years... If it is a teaching that Muslims cannot form alliances with Jews and Christians and war with other Muslims then we have a small problem there too....
And if we have troops that are going to use being Islamic to only deploy when they deem it to suit their personal requirements, we have a small problem there too...

And the biggest problem is I am still stumped on this...

I always thought that CO status had more to do with demonstrating (via friends and other witnesses) that you've always held pacifist ideals, rather than being a religious thing. I didn't know about the Peace Churches and whatnot until I saw it in a wiki somewhere.

A person may consider themselves to belong to a particular religion and not follow the precepts of that religion. I haven't seen too many people give everything they have to the poor and take up a cross and follow Jesus. I don't know what the Koran says about it but from what I've read there are some sects of Islam that interpret their scriptures one way and some another. Personally I an with Sam Harris on the whole thing but that is for another thread.

Originally Posted by northpaw

Dunno, I know zilch about the various interpretations of Islam and how our government would recognize them in this context. All I know is that it didn't work for Ali.

As for bending the teachings, sure, why not? I've known Muslims who drink, just like I've known Baptists who dance. We're talking about over a billion people worldwide who come from very different cultural backgrounds, so it stands to reason that there'd be a pretty wide variety who come to the US, too.

you also have to remember there are different sects just like any other religion and they interpret the tenants of the religion in different ways. That can sometimes be drastically different.


Personally the thought of banning someone from the military because of their religion or race or ethnic group is, say...don't we have laws about that in this country. I guess we could change those laws and whenever the majority doesn't like some minority we can just restrict their rights maybe even deport them all and if we can't find recipients we could just kill them all but of course another guy with a funny mustache tried that a while back.

You know, I think the sooner that society looks at people on a case by case basis the better.

I know plenty of people who are 'dangerous' to society, but that is their life story and I know that they did what ever they had to do in order to live their life with the cards dealt.

I am tired, once again, of people juding. Case by case basis, people.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Sorry guys I know you are trying here, but honestly all the talk about other religions and whether they fight or not is really not helping my being stumped...

If it is a true teaching of the Koran that a Muslim cannot war on another Muslim then we have a small problem because they have been killing each other for 1000's of years... If it is a teaching that Muslims cannot form alliances with Jews and Christians and war with other Muslims then we have a small problem there too....
And if we have troops that are going to use being Islamic to only deploy when they deem it to suit their personal requirements, we have a small problem there too...

And the biggest problem is I am still stumped on this...

Wouldn't it sound odd if you substituted "Christian" in such broad statements? (Okay, you'd need to change the statements a little, but still.) There's no one kind of Muslim, and if you combine that with the fact that pragmatic concerns usually trump religious ideals, it gets harder and harder to put a finger on what they as a (only loosely connected) group think, feel, or believe. As it should be.

Ok I can go that way too

It is now coming out that everyone this "Wacko" dealt with thought he was a "Wacko" from his Imam to his fellow officers... But not one report was made because of Political Correctness.....

That just popped on MSN news sorry read it on another computer, so I don't have the link...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What I am asking is can you just bend Islamic teachings to your own whim like you can most other religions????

Like you just stated about Christianity being open to interpretation..
Because I was under the impression that there is no "interpetation" in Islam????

The clear and obvious answer here is 'yes'. What people often forget, ignore, or pretend doesn't exist, is that there are many different views on Islam. There is a Sunni view, a Shi'ite view, and a Sufism view. There are those who use small passages from the Qur'an to justify terrorism, while still others ignore passages from the Qur'an to allow themselves to drink or dress differently (particularly young modern Muslim females) to what is proscribed traditionally. Clearly, these are all interpretations of various Islamic rules, so to assert that there is no interpretation is Islam is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

If it is a true teaching of the Koran that a Muslim cannot war on another Muslim then we have a small problem because they have been killing each other for 1000's of years.

Let's examine some true teachings of the Bible for a second. Do not covet another man's possessions. Do not commit adultery. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not work on the Sabbath. Do not swear. Do not listen to anyone else swear (Leviticus 5 v1, in case anyone thinks I made that one up). Do not touch an unclean animal or the carcass of an unclean animal (these animals include any seafood without fins or scales, mice, ravens, eagles, ostriches, seagulls, hawks, storks, herons, any flying insect that does not also jump, any animal that walks on all fours and has paws).

Christians regularly disregard these rules, and have been doing so the last couple of millennia - imagine any Christian that has a pet cat or dog - an unclean animal. Any Christian that swears or hears someone else swear. A Christian who has committed adultery (a big rule to break, yet it's done often). My point that I'm trying to make is that it is not just Muslims who break the commandments set out by their holy book. Christians do so as well, as do Jews (the unclean animals thing applies to them too).

Therefore, your assertion that we have a problem (I presume because Muslims appear to you to be willfully not following the teachings of their religion) is false, as many other large religions have followers ignoring the rules too. Muslims are just the same as any other religion - they have their nutjobs, their extreme conservatives, their historic atrocities, and their wacko terrorist groups. IMHO, refusing them entrance to the military simply because of their religious beliefs is a step back to the bad old days of repression of one group (women, African-Americans, Native Americans etc). Surely it would also violate the separation of Church and State in some way as well?

Originally Posted by mosley59

The clear and obvious answer here is 'yes'. What people often forget, ignore, or pretend doesn't exist, is that there are many different views on Islam. There is a Sunni view, a Shi'ite view, and a Sufism view. There are those who use small passages from the Qur'an to justify terrorism, while still others ignore passages from the Qur'an to allow themselves to drink or dress differently (particularly young modern Muslim females) to what is proscribed traditionally. Clearly, these are all interpretations of various Islamic rules, so to assert that there is no interpretation is Islam is ridiculous.

Let's examine some true teachings of the Bible for a second. Do not covet another man's possessions. Do not commit adultery. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not work on the Sabbath. Do not swear. Do not listen to anyone else swear (Leviticus 5 v1, in case anyone thinks I made that one up). Do not touch an unclean animal or the carcass of an unclean animal (these animals include any seafood without fins or scales, mice, ravens, eagles, ostriches, seagulls, hawks, storks, herons, any flying insect that does not also jump, any animal that walks on all fours and has paws).

Christians regularly disregard these rules, and have been doing so the last couple of millennia - imagine any Christian that has a pet cat or dog - an unclean animal. Any Christian that swears or hears someone else swear. A Christian who has committed adultery (a big rule to break, yet it's done often). My point that I'm trying to make is that it is not just Muslims who break the commandments set out by their holy book. Christians do so as well, as do Jews (the unclean animals thing applies to them too).

Therefore, your assertion that we have a problem (I presume because Muslims appear to you to be willfully not following the teachings of their religion) is false, as many other large religions have followers ignoring the rules too. Muslims are just the same as any other religion - they have their nutjobs, their extreme conservatives, their historic atrocities, and their wacko terrorist groups. IMHO, refusing them entrance to the military simply because of their religious beliefs is a step back to the bad old days of repression of one group (women, African-Americans, Native Americans etc). Surely it would also violate the separation of Church and State in some way as well?

Actually the problem I was talking about was using ones religion ie: any religion, to not do ones duty in the US military.... That is what this thread was actually about....