Thread: America Rising

Originally Posted by JMS

I never read nor do I remember those posts of yours that I did read.

I wonder if you got my point?

Yes, and it speaks volumes my dear friend.

Originally Posted by jnich67

The whole model needs to be re-aligned. That will take time and a realistic assessment of our priorities.

But who can do it, when political calculations are so important?

These threads are prime example - the same posters flip between advocating being rational and pragmatic, and being irrational and principled, depending on only whether that position supports their ideology.

It's all politics as usual and since almost nobody is willing to be the sacrificial lamb that's how it will continue, no matter what mix of republicans, democrats, teabaggers etc. will get in congress.

The more I think about these things the more I am convinced that this is exactly as things should be - the voters don't vote rationally, so the elected officials make policy correspondingly. It's a representative democracy after all.

This thread has jumped around in focus quite a bit, but, in scanning some of the more recent posts...I noted reference to the health care bill...the administration creating a panic/false urgency to get this thing through, etc.

There have been posts that have put off the created panic, with something to the effect that the conservatives have done it too. I think all of this misses the point. I think it a better idea to stay away from subjective titles, (what/who is a conservative/liberal...anybody got a hard definition?)

Chances are whether you label yourself or some other person a conservative or a liberal...your interests and well being are quite common; you probably want much the same thing. So, maybe we can give up liberal/conservative focus for logic, as that will serve both.

I remember when everyone was truly amazed at the fact that the Health Care Bill was 1100 pages, and that no one had read the entire document or had a comprehensive idea of what it contained. 1100 pages, that is amazing, isn't it.

Now, that same bill is, I believe 2400 pages...it is longer than War and Peace and if you did read it, that would be quite an exercise. Reading is one thing, understanding is another because we have 2400 pages of legalese...2400 pages that no one person has read, understands, can clearly define and is yet to be interpreted.

With this in mind, the powers are undeniably offering deals, (a soft word for bribes) to our representatives to secure their No to a Yes...does anyone have a problem with that? A person who says, "I cannot vote for this bill because I cannot agree with some of it's contents as best serving...", and is then ushered off into a meeting room; called to the White House; promised a job if they loose the Fall election; given a plane ride...whatever. After the meeting, teh bill remains the same, but, somehow they've changed their mind and decided to vote Yes.

One-sixth of our economy, (especially this economy), will be subject to this 2400 page, no one has a clue what it is; 400,000 words of legalese that is yet to be interpreted; and will result in the creation of yet more Departments, Offices, Title and over-seers...like we don't already have enough of that in Washington. In short...they want to vote it in...have to buy votes to hope to get it voted in...don't know what it is...but they want to do this by Sunday.

Remember the TARP emergency...gotta get it inacted now or doom. Over one year later, unemployment is higher than it ever was...continues to rise, the economy hasn't reversed...some economists say the worse is yet to come and that money they needed right now...the majority of it hasn't been injected into the economy yet...but 1-year ago, they needed it immediately to get it into the economy pronto. Only a little over 30% has been used and most of that it has been shown hasn't created jobs...most of it is Pork. We're we conned?

I see a correlation...not conservatively or liberally speaking...logically. Whether you like Obama or not...think we need change or not...in reference to the above...doesn't it seem that something isn't quite right here. I think they need eight reams of paper to ream the people, yet again.

Originally Posted by hardblues

So, maybe we can give up liberal/conservative focus for logic, as that will serve both.

Sure, logic is great, even better if you don't stop as soon as the logical conclusions and your ideology are cozy and comfortable.

Originally Posted by hardblues

2400 pages that no one person has read, understands, can clearly define and is yet to be interpreted.

That seems a bit presumptuous. Now apply the same logic to the legalese behind some policy you agree with. See if you feel the same way.

Originally Posted by hardblues

With this in mind, the powers are undeniably offering deals, (a soft word for bribes) to our representatives to secure their No to a Yes...does anyone have a problem with that?

I think the majority of americans have a problem with that. And that is why this is like this. Because that's supposed to be the end of the narrative, now let's go and vote.
But I would suggest you go a bit further and ask how long has this thing been going on. Why is it? What would happen if it magically changes and that's not an option for conducting politics? And if you think you like the new system better (with all the potential negatives which you should expect to actually happen before any positives) do you envision a path to change it?

Originally Posted by hardblues

Remember the TARP emergency...gotta get it inacted now or doom. Over one year later, unemployment is higher than it ever was...continues to rise, the economy hasn't reversed...

Yes, I do remember TARP, seems like you're a bit hazy on it. It's abbreviation of Troubled Assets Relieve Program, and had nothing to do with jobs or unemployment. It was about paying the ransom to the big financial institutions whose big losses threatened to take the whole economy down with them. So 'we the people' promised the chinese to pay them back and they gave a loan to the banks. And most of the biggest banks have paid quite a bit of this loan back.

Originally Posted by hardblues

some economists say

Well some economists say the exact opposite, so that's no way to make an argument. If you want to rely on authority you have to provide evidence that that is an authority indeed.


I think that the whole political process in america at the moment is really embarassing. From campaigning to passing legislation to interpreting legislation in the supreme court. And I have already lost all hope in the 'tea party goers'.

It's campaign season already, so now is the chance for change and it depends on the common sense of common americans. As long as they fall for the campaign BS as in the past the results will be exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Sure, we don't have the freedom

and this is why so many Americans find the very idea hateful.

also, I went and looked, and including federal taxes and health insurance, I keep 89% of my income. (it should be noted that I only have zero-copay for dental, for medical it's 20 bucks, for medicine it's 5 bucks, but that was one option of many that I chose from)

I guess the only way you'd want the government taking care of your healthcare (or your retirement funds, or anything, really) is if you think the government would be better at it than you are. I'm not one of those people.

Government IS the problem. They've created just about every major problem we have had in this country. If they would get out of the way, remove restrictions and regulations and taxation on people and businesses the country would be freed to do business. Maybe then health care wouldn't cost so much.

Originally Posted by Miner123

Government IS the problem. They've created just about every major problem we have had in this country. If they would get out of the way, remove restrictions and regulations and taxation on people and businesses the country would be freed to do business. Maybe then health care wouldn't cost so much.

Get rid of regulation! Wow, did you used to work for a large energy company in Texas by chance?

Originally Posted by commiecat

Get rid of regulation! Wow, did you used to work for a large energy company in Texas by chance?

What is so funny about removing restrictive overbearing regulations?

Originally Posted by Miner123

What is so funny about removing restrictive overbearing regulations?

It's strange isn't it? Reminds me of my dog - always happiest when on a leash.

In fact who's the bigger fool - the dog on a leash? or the dog calling for more leashes for dogs?

But it should be no surprise that dogs, could they talk, would ask for more leashes. After all, it's in their nature to be lead.