Thread: Protesting in Wisconsin....Just the beginning?

Originally Posted by kerryman71

Again, these benefits that we do have were bargained for and agreed upon by both parties. I think most of us can agree that we're in this mess because of the excesses of those at the top, not the working class. Don't let them get away with blaming the workers like they are and they skate free. We've all been divided against each other long enough. It's time to put our petty differences aside and turn our attention to those who are really at fault. United we stand, divided we beg!!

John

The best thing thats been said on this thread thus far, think of all the division being created by the media, Fox, CNN, NPR, CBS etc. It is not a matter of left vs right, it is not a matter of capitalism vs socialism, republicanism vs the democrats. It is a matter of us vs them. The people at the top know this, the people at the bottom have been too busy scratching each others eyes out trying to make a moot point.

Originally Posted by gugi

Very different marginal tax rates back then than today. But I suppose that's just a small part of keeping America safe from socialism.

Not really. It's just another way to make sure the have's have what they want and the rest go without.

Unfortunately it has become very apparent that both political parties answer to the same corporate interests, one more so than others. The other 98% of America seems to be left out in the cold.

The two party system in this country is broke and has been for a while.

John

Originally Posted by gugi

but there's still the rule of the law and it takes a bankruptcy to cancel a debt.

They will just change the law.

tim

Originally Posted by kerryman71

Not really.

Yes, really Ok that socialism part was probably from me consuming a bit too much conservative media, so here's a picture originating in NYT to counterbalance it.

Originally Posted by 32t

They will just change the law.

That's the thing though, afik the federal laws trump state laws, so if a state decides that they are no longer going to pay their former employee the pension that they had mutually agreed upon say some 20 years ago, I don't think that just changing the state law to say it's cool would fly. But I really don't know all that much.

I should've been a little clearer in my "not really" comment. I meant not really in regards to the socialism comment you made. I realize that when this country was most prosperous for the majority of its population the top wage earners were taxed much higher. Our progressive tax system has gotten much more regressive over the years. There were some years when the top money makers were paying as much as 70% towards the end of the year. The fact that they now pay less than ten percent more than many middle class people is sickening. That's of course if they pay at all.

When it comes to corporations forget it. In the early 2000's Microsoft made 13 billion in PROFIT and paid less than 6% in taxes while at the same time outsourcing over 100,000 to India I believe.

I think we were on the same page, just in misunderstanding in wording.

John

Originally Posted by gugi

Yes, really Ok that socialism part was probably from me consuming a bit too much conservative media, so here's a picture originating in NYT to counterbalance it.





That's the thing though, afik the federal laws trump state laws, so if a state decides that they are no longer going to pay their former employee the pension that they had mutually agreed upon say some 20 years ago, I don't think that just changing the state law to say it's cool would fly. But I really don't know all that much.

Gingrich and Jeb Bush are actually pushing the Republican members of the House and Senate to make it easier for states to file bankruptcy so that they can get out of their pension obligation to retirees.

John

Funny how people are so concerned about the pay and benefits of public workers but don't seem to have any thought about what some mid level manager at GM makes or the guy who manages your local supermarket. After-all you are paying his wages every time you purchase something. Public Worker salaries are public record but private ones are a big hush hush secret.

What's that you say, you have no choice you have to pay taxes and there is no choice on your part but you can buy a Ford or go to another supermarket? You think that really makes a difference? GM pays their workers a fraction of what they used to pay. Anyone notice a decrease in the price of a Chevy?

If anyone would like to see the results of overly ambitious unions and the ability for companies to move overseas to get away from them...please come to Detroit. Unions definitely have their place when employees are undercompensated, mistreated and/or work in dangerous jobs, but most of this is now regulated by laws and OSHA.

My Dad moved here from Kentucky after WWII so that his family could have a better life. Now people are moving away from this area so their families can have a better life. My house is worth less than half of what it was worth 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by DCasper

If anyone would like to see the results of overly ambitious unions and the ability for companies to move overseas to get away from them...please come to Detroit. Unions definitely have their place when employees are undercompensated, mistreated and/or work in dangerous jobs, but most of this is now regulated by laws and OSHA.

My Dad moved here from Kentucky after WWII so that his family could have a better life. Now people are moving away from this area so their families can have a better life. My house is worth less than half of what it was worth 5 years ago.

Is this the result of unions or is it the result of Nafta and Gatt? Unions did not push companies overseas, they went there for the slave labor and no regulation. Courtesy of Bill Clinton. Have you noticed that damn near everything from curtain blinds, baby food, toothpaste and sheetrock have all had issues with poisoning people. Neither the Chinese nor the corporations have an issue with killing you, its all about the bottom line. You have as much value to them as the dog in the OP of the Glorious China thread. Put the blame where it really goes.

Do you really believe the unions drove companies out of this country? Last year one of the appliance makers shut down a plant in Ohio, which was a profitable plant. They claimed as usual, and everyone drank the Kool-Aid and believed, that the union workers were making too much for them to stay there. Again, they were making a profit. So what did they do? They moved south...not a southern state where the standard of living may be less and they could get away with paying the workers less, but south of the border to Mexico.

So in all reality the price of those appliances make in Mexico should drop dramatically, right? I mean the workers are probably making five bucks a day if they're lucky with no benefits. It all comes down to profit, profit, profit. People are so easily fooled. The unions aren't ruining the country, corporate greed is.

John