Thread: Protesting in Wisconsin....Just the beginning?

Originally Posted by MackofallTrades

The issue is not when you work one job and retire, then take up a second job and retire. That is totally legal.

The issue is that one person would hold 2 jobs at the same time. Each job would be "full time" but the employee would only work a portion of a week on each job. Now, you have one person, possibly working one job 80-90% (if you are lucky) of the time and giving lip service to a second job. He is earning a pension on both but only doing the work of one.

Does this actually happen beyond small number of cases that add up to no financial impact? It seems rather odd if somebody can do two full time jobs simultaneously. And in any case it looks to me something that would be done by a middle or high level executive rather than a teacher. Numbers would be nice.

It is not teachers and blue collar workers that are the culprits here. It is always a politically appointed position given to someone who is already a state employee (usually members of the legislative branch).

As far as numbers, it can't be that many at one time. The problem is that it has occurred over many years. Over time, even a small chink in the armor can be catastrophic.

Right, but those officials are elected, or appointed by elected officials, and tasked with making decisions on behalf of the taxpayers. So, when they screw up the taxpayers are still on the hook for those bad decisions.

What the current political majority in Wisconsin is saying is that it's too bad the guys before us messed it up, now we're going to fix it by just giving a round of tax breaks and just alter the contracts on the low level government employees.
(Anybody still remember the big outcry a couple of months ago over the unfairness of taking an extra 1-2cents on every dollar over $250,000/year? Way better to take 3-10cents on the dollar from all these government employees making $30,000-$80,000/year.)

What I see is just lot of politics and very little interest in addressing the problem in a meaningful way.

Crisis in Dairyland - For Richer and Poorer - Teachers and Wall Street - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 03/03/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Originally Posted by gugi

Right, but those officials are elected, or appointed by elected officials, and tasked with making decisions on behalf of the taxpayers. So, when they screw up the taxpayers are still on the hook for those bad decisions.

What the current political majority in Wisconsin is saying is that it's too bad the guys before us messed it up, now we're going to fix it by just giving a round of tax breaks and just alter the contracts on the low level government employees.
(Anybody still remember the big outcry a couple of months ago over the unfairness of taking an extra 1-2cents on every dollar over $250,000/year? Way better to take 3-10cents on the dollar from all these government employees making $30,000-$80,000/year.)

What I see is just lot of politics and very little interest in addressing the problem in a meaningful way.

I was surprised by this quote from Reagan...

"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland ... They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." --Ronald Reagan, Labor Day Address at Liberty State Park, 1980

Originally Posted by gugi

Right, but those officials are elected, or appointed by elected officials, and tasked with making decisions on behalf of the taxpayers. So, when they screw up the taxpayers are still on the hook for those bad decisions.

What the current political majority in Wisconsin is saying is that it's too bad the guys before us messed it up, now we're going to fix it by just giving a round of tax breaks and just alter the contracts on the low level government employees.
(Anybody still remember the big outcry a couple of months ago over the unfairness of taking an extra 1-2cents on every dollar over $250,000/year? Way better to take 3-10cents on the dollar from all these government employees making $30,000-$80,000/year.)

What I see is just lot of politics and very little interest in addressing the problem in a meaningful way.

Yeah, I can't comment on the Wisconsin issue with any accuracy. I won't pretend to know much about that.

But as far as NJ's double dipping, the taxpayers are always on the hook for the mistakes of elected politicians. Hell, we did elect them.

We allowed the politicians to appoint their buddies into positions, then failed to remove those politicians from their offices. IMO, it would do NJ a ton of good to elect a majority of Republicans in the upcoming election in order to try and balance out the state. I am not arguing for one party over the other here, but I feel that a balance of each party is something that is beneficial. We have been a democrat led state for too long.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

I was surprised by this quote from Reagan...

Dont be. It is the usual political double talk, whatever works at the moment type of comment. This is the same guy who as a Democrat was President of the Screen Actors Guild, as well as the same guy who as a Republican POTUS said that Air Traffic Controllers could not organize or negotiate. Power and money are a good thing in my hands, not so much in yours.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Crisis in Dairyland - For Richer and Poorer - Teachers and Wall Street - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 03/03/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Well said, though you didn't actually say it!

That clip totally hits the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

I was surprised by this quote from Reagan...

That's called hypocrisy I guess. Although I believe this statement to be correct.

Not being american I'm not going to get involved in the discussion, but I just wanted to say that it really really saddens (and frightens) me to see the US sliding away towards what I see as a modern kind of fascism. And so many of you just don't see this or worse maybe, just don't care. Your country deserves better than this.

Here is my take on things.. Now I have not finished reading all the bills and budget information for my state but am currently in the process of it.

The states around this area ( Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan ) have either all passed or are in the process of passing bills limiting the collective bargaining ability of Unions. The primary way they are getting these through is that due to the extreme of our two party system currently the Republicans control the government in these states.

I think also that one reason there is not more uproar about this is there is so much misinformation about public sector unions out there and with the recent history of the Auto Workers Union and how they were blamed for the downfall of Ford, GM, and Chrysler people who do not belong to one ( majority of America) they do not think it affects them. Unfortunately people forget about the history of Unions and how the working conditions and in some ways even the wages we earn today are due to them.

I don't know many public employees but I do know a lot of teachers who are also affected by these changes. The public perception ( either right or wrong) is that teachers in Michigan get free health care , free massages, and other perks due to being a teacher. This is actually true at some districts that have bargained for them but the majority of them do not get these freebies and do have to pay some of their benefits like the private sector. It all comes down to how those Districts bargained with the Teachers Union. Most teachers also spend between five hundred and a thousand dollars a year to provide materials for their classroom such as pencils, paper, crayons, and other items that you would think should be part of a schools list of items to have on hand for their teachers.

I know here schools have been hurting financially since the early to mid 90's when the Governor then decided to change how schools were funded. Originally they were funded through Property Taxes and since those went up slightly every year the Districts had a slightly larger budget most years. Their funding was then moved to being tied to the Lottery system here in Michigan and since then funding has declined every year.

I think we are in for a rough couple of years as with most things the pendulum seems to swing wide right or wide left for a bit before people finally figure out it is better to be closer to the middle. We may even see a third party emerge if things don't correct in the next couple of years.

I will stop rambling now..