Thread: Are you "Furious".

This whole thing stinks of Watergate.

Here is your paper trail. F&F is a fact. The killings are a fact.

Fast and*Furious - Documents - Los Angeles Times

Here are the court opinions saying Executive Privileged can not be used.

Court rulings suggest 'privilege' claim over 'Furious' docs would fizzle, Republicans say | Fox News

The D.C. appeals court in 2004 rejected a privilege claim made by the George W. Bush White House pertaining to Justice Department documents dating back to the Clinton administration.

That case involved a different type of claim, but a 1997 opinion from the same court made an observation that could come back to haunt the Obama administration if the current case ends up before the federal judiciary.

"The privilege," the court wrote, "disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct occurred."

Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., former House Judiciary Committee chairman, released a memo earlier this week citing that very line and decrying the administration's argument as bunk.

"The president's assertion of executive privilege is an illegal attempt to avoid responsibility for the department's misconduct," Sensenbrenner said.

He wrote in his memo that the privilege "cannot be used to protect documents in the face of wrongdoing."

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Here is your paper trail. F&F is a fact. The killings are a fact.

Sure, those are facts.
However, your assertions that this was illegal, that the media has been trying desperately to ignore the whole thing, that Libby went to jail for the exact same thing, that Holder should loose his job and go to jail, that Holder is lying, that the claimed executive privilege is illegal are NOT facts and you still haven't made a coherent argument for your assertions based on established facts.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Here are the court opinions saying Executive Privileged can not be used.

Firstly, those are not court opinions. Secondly, you should be well aware that the current supreme court has been ruling and continues to rule in discord with stare decisis, so you shouldn't put too much weight into precedents.

So gugi, what is your take on the current court's decision on Heller v. DC?

And of course the media is giving the Administration and the Justice Dept a free pass. They are as most everyone knows the PR wing of the Democrat Party. If it was not the new media (Fox News, Cam & Co., The Heritage Foundation, and etc.) no one would have heard about this.

It is no secret that the mainstream media has been in the tank of the Dems for years and no longer practices competent journalism but spreads the propaganda of the DNC. In the mainstream circles, there are very few real investigative journalists left.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

So gugi, what is your take on the current court's decision on Heller v. DC?

Didn't you already take the thread off topic once, and then lamented that it was taken off topic?
If you want to discuss Heller vs. DC may be you ought to start a new thread

So whose darn opinion matters? According to you anyone who has an "R" next to their name has no ground to stand on when it comes to stating facts and precedent on this matter. Executive privilege cannot be used to coverup alleged illegal activities.

In the matter of US v. Nixon, the court ruled that the use of executive privilege was not out of hand under the terms of Article II but also ruled under Article III that the public's general interest in the case as it pertains to the truth of the alleged criminal activity of President Nixon takes precedent.

Also according to you logic, if you are a Republican and invoke EP, then you must be involved in illegal practices but if you are a Democrat invoking EP then you are cool, hip, and above the law. Democrats are consummate professionals in the art of "Do as I say, not as I do". They are the ones who think they are so vastly superior to everyday Americans as to their desire to control every aspect of our lives.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

What criminal investigation? The only thing that is criminal in this matter is Mr. Holder's conduct as the AG. What is so unprecedented about Mr. Issa's aggressive desire for the truth? What is so unnecessary about getting to the bottom of this?

Bush's Operation Wide Receiver allowed a fraction of the arms to walk in order to see whose hands they wound up in. This was with the cooperation of the Mexican government. It was cancelled because it was grossly ineffective. So Holder and Obama dusted off this program and ramped it up with three to four times the amount of arms to what result. They lost track of most of them and the add insult, the Mexican government was left in the dark.

Operation F&F is nothing more than a state-sponsored arms-trafficking scheme that has resulted in loss of life on both sides of the border. Also, about the redacted documents. I smell a good ole case of CYA by the Holder Justice Dept and the WH.

So let me get this straight. You have privy to all the Criminal Investigations ongoing at ATF so you can speak of this. Also you guys are saying Obama and Holder are the instigators of this whole mess and it's all in their laps?

You guys don't have a clue, really. You know nothing about how Federal Law Enforcement Investigation are initiated, prosecuted and tracked. I could educate you but probably most here aren't interested in any facts.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

So whose darn opinion matters?

Really, I have to tell you this? The opinion of the court ruling in the specific case that is being discussed.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

According to you anyone who has an "R" next to their name has no ground to stand on when it comes to stating facts and precedent on this matter.

Now, now, please do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything even close to this, and would appreciate if you stick to only what I actually post without making wild and unfounded extrapolations.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

Also according to you logic, if you are a Republican and invoke EP, then you must be involved in illegal practices but if you are a Democrat invoking EP then you are cool, hip, and above the law.

Please explain how did you reach to this conclusion, and specifically what is it that you understand by 'my logic' and please substantiated with my posts, not just your allegations.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

Democrats are consummate professionals in the art of "Do as I say, not as I do". They are the ones who think they are so vastly superior to everyday Americans as to their desire to control every aspect of our lives.

Please provide specific evidence backing these statements. Do not forget the evidence that this is limited to only Democrats and other parties do not engage in this.

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

His rhetoric is based in flawed Marxist ideas that have been tried all over the world to what result. The turmoil in Europe is a prime example how socialist principles are the downfall of countries. Massive public expenditure is going to lead to the collapse of the eurozone. Obama's soul motivation is to transform this country into a European style socialist republic.

The economic problems in Europe and the US weren't cause by either a right or left wing philosophy . They were cause by Greed. The Greed of the Bankers and Insurance Co. And the Greed of the Politicians who, for what ever reason, allowed them to get away with it.
The Banks and the Markets caused the problems that were in now and we'll continue to be in for who knows how long.

While i'm here... The violence on the US /Mexico boarder is caused by the US's War on Drugs. Just like the Violence we had in the US with Prohibition ; this violence don't stop till we realize the A WAR isn't the way to stop it. If we're calling it a War that what we have.

Originally Posted by gugi
Really, I have to tell you this? The opinion of the court ruling in the specific case that is being discussed.

There has been no ruling on F&F yet but to go back and state fact on the precedent that is very applicable to this case I refer to the courts action on the use of EP in the 2004 case of GW invoking EP in regard to Clinton era activities.

Originally Posted gugi
Please provide specific evidence backing these statements. Do not forget the evidence that this is limited to only Democrats and other parties do not engage in this.

My evidence on this is clear. All I have to do is to invoke the name Albert Gore. He has spent his life since the 2000 election pushing his climate change snake oil down our throats when his own home uses 21 times the amount of energy that the average American household uses. He justifies it by saying he purchases carbon offsets from a company that he is a 40% shareholder in. He demands that we conserve but yet he does not practice what he preaches.