Thread: What defensive round do you carry?

Editor not working correctly Hmmm

There is also the problem of over-penetration and Ricochet which are another two reasons to carry Hollow-Points is what I wanted to add

I mean, shot placement is key, but other factors have equal or greater considerations. Caliber, bullet weight, charge weight, powder type, etc.

Shot placement using a .22 is definitely of utmost importance. Now a .338 lapua just needs to buzz by someone and they are going to know they made a big mistake!

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A.338 that buzzes by, is called a miss.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

It is shot placement, not bullet design, that is effective. Gun rags and bullet manufactures have made fortunes selling bullets, with photos of shooting watermelons, water jugs and blocks of gelatin.

Alternating ball with any quality hollow point ammo is a good practice for maximum penetration and energy transmission. If you hit a vital area, bullet design does not matter.

For the most part I agree with the first sentence. But most folks that keel over from a gun shot wound do it because they've bled out. So I figure larger wound channel, more blood leaking faster, person that much more likely to stop what they were doing. But there are a lot of gimmicks out there. R.I.P. rounds immediately come to mind. I figure just about any good regular hollow point will get the desired result though.

I dunno about alternating harball. Most of what I've seen in hardball ammo, at least in .45, is slower moving than my self defense rounds. I've seen hardball as slow as 750-800 fps which is 150-200 slower than it should be.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Editor not working correctly Hmmm

There is also the problem of over-penetration and Ricochet which are another two reasons to carry Hollow-Points is what I wanted to add

Unfortunately where I live these are valid concerns. Otherwise my self defense round would be a .300 WBY Mag.

A .338 buzzing by might be a miss, but the bark of a large gun and feeling the air pressure of a medium bore round whizzing by just might be enough to make someone rethink whatever they were doing that caused that round to be sent their way. Of course when you miss with a round like that you best be sure that whatever it does hit A: can be replaced, and B: is something you can afford to replace.

Federal HST not plus P's in all my .45's.

Over penetration, with a handgun is rarely an issue and the bullet, will have lost most if not all its energy, after penetrating the first intervening object.

Hitting a vital and or pain producing location like the head, spinal cord, pelvic girdle, leg bone or foot will general stop the attacker and allow for a second shot if needed.

I once attended an autopsy of a guy who was shot directly through the heart with a .38 Winchester Western Silver Tip. It mushroomed to about the size of a quarter and cut a perfect hole through his heart.

After being shot in a drive by, at a distance of, about 25 feet, he drew his handgun from his waistband and chased after the shooter’s car, about a half block and return fire, 18 rounds from his CZ, before bleeding out and collapsing.

So, while hollow point bullets in handguns perform as advertised, they are not as effective as the manufactures would have you think. And in this day, when everyone is wearing body armor, shooting through glass or other objects, one must decide which round will have the best performance in all scenarios.

The overpenetration issue for Law Enforcement, is a CYA issue and buying in of the “Stopping Power Myth/Hype”. It is cheaper to supply officers with hollow point ammo, than to train them to shoot properly/accurately. Having been a part of the ammunition selection process/circus, those decisions, are made by attorneys, on which round is easier to defend, and no regard to the officers survival.

Look at the North Hollywood shootout, where officers fired over 750 rounds and no one could affect a head shot. A shot to the foot, brought the suspect down where he was fatally shot and the aggression and shooting ended.

It is a personal decision, on which ammunition to carry and there is no perfect round for all situations, make an informed decision based on fact, not hype. And realize that in the city, police backup at best, is 5-10 minutes away, after the call is made… a long time, when lead is flying at you.

Obviously we dont carry here in blightly unless your a gangster so my knowledge is limited to my Army career, and I defer to all your expertise.
The standard issue for rounds is 5.56. When your hit with a 5.56 it will tumble causing internal injuries, unless hit multiple times or in the head you wont die, the reason why we use these rounds is that your oppo then has to look after you if youve been hit. Effectively causing more damage through moral etc. US issue M16s also use the 5.56 round.
Ak47 which are favoured by various countries use 7.62 rounds, if your hit with one of these you'll know about it as it spins pushing skin, bone, cartilage and everything out through the other side! Huge exit wounds...
Just my 10p worth.

Another key thing to note, different guns will react differently to the same ammo. What someone else is using with great success could shoot like crap out of your gun. Trying a few options and determining what works best for you is the best advice I can give.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Over penetration, with a handgun is rarely an issue and the bullet, will have lost most if not all its energy, after penetrating the first intervening object.

Hitting a vital and or pain producing location like the head, spinal cord, pelvic girdle, leg bone or foot will general stop the attacker and allow for a second shot if needed.

I once attended an autopsy of a guy who was shot directly through the heart with a .38 Winchester Western Silver Tip. It mushroomed to about the size of a quarter and cut a perfect hole through his heart.

After being shot in a drive by, at a distance of, about 25 feet, he drew his handgun from his waistband and chased after the shooter’s car, about a half block and return fire, 18 rounds from his CZ, before bleeding out and collapsing.

So, while hollow point bullets in handguns perform as advertised, they are not as effective as the manufactures would have you think. And in this day, when everyone is wearing body armor, shooting through glass or other objects, one must decide which round will have the best performance in all scenarios.

The overpenetration issue for Law Enforcement, is a CYA issue and buying in of the “Stopping Power Myth/Hype”. It is cheaper to supply officers with hollow point ammo, than to train them to shoot properly/accurately. Having been a part of the ammunition selection process/circus, those decisions, are made by attorneys, on which round is easier to defend, and no regard to the officers survival.

Look at the North Hollywood shootout, where officers fired over 750 rounds and no one could affect a head shot. A shot to the foot, brought the suspect down where he was fatally shot and the aggression and shooting ended.

It is a personal decision, on which ammunition to carry and there is no perfect round for all situations, make an informed decision based on fact, not hype. And realize that in the city, police backup at best, is 5-10 minutes away, after the call is made… a long time, when lead is flying at you.

You are talking about LEO engagements

Totally different for a civilian

Over-penetration while zinging 9mm FMJ's at a home intruder coming up the stairs is most certainly an issue, especially if you don't happen to live in my house where my nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away through dense trees... Or perhaps your child's room happens to be the backstop of your missed rounds

For CCW carry You are most certainly responsible for all those misses and you will miss.. It is bad enough with just a miss but a bouncing betty fmj from a ricochet which can go in a completely different direction of your aim is even more dangerous.. Much less of a chance using high expansion HP's

Now what you said about the attorney deciding, is a valid point for the civilian too, always carry factory rounds and better yet have the original box in the gun safe..

There is no perfect Caliber or Bullet for all situations, I agree, chose wisely

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Over penetration, with a handgun is rarely an issue and the bullet, will have lost most if not all its energy, after penetrating the first intervening object.

Hitting a vital and or pain producing location like the head, spinal cord, pelvic girdle, leg bone or foot will general stop the attacker and allow for a second shot if needed.

I once attended an autopsy of a guy who was shot directly through the heart with a .38 Winchester Western Silver Tip. It mushroomed to about the size of a quarter and cut a perfect hole through his heart.

After being shot in a drive by, at a distance of, about 25 feet, he drew his handgun from his waistband and chased after the shooter’s car, about a half block and return fire, 18 rounds from his CZ, before bleeding out and collapsing.

So, while hollow point bullets in handguns perform as advertised, they are not as effective as the manufactures would have you think. And in this day, when everyone is wearing body armor, shooting through glass or other objects, one must decide which round will have the best performance in all scenarios.

The overpenetration issue for Law Enforcement, is a CYA issue and buying in of the “Stopping Power Myth/Hype”. It is cheaper to supply officers with hollow point ammo, than to train them to shoot properly/accurately. Having been a part of the ammunition selection process/circus, those decisions, are made by attorneys, on which round is easier to defend, and no regard to the officers survival.

Look at the North Hollywood shootout, where officers fired over 750 rounds and no one could affect a head shot. A shot to the foot, brought the suspect down where he was fatally shot and the aggression and shooting ended.

It is a personal decision, on which ammunition to carry and there is no perfect round for all situations, make an informed decision based on fact, not hype. And realize that in the city, police backup at best, is 5-10 minutes away, after the call is made… a long time, when lead is flying at you.

It's always a CYA issue. They made it apparent to us in our concealed carry class that we're responsible for every round we fire from the time it leaves the muzzle until it comes to a full and complete stop. Anything it hits along the way is on the shooter. Might vary a little state to state, and some may be more lenient with regard to collateral damage.

At any rate, the driving factor behind me choosing Golden Sabers wasn't so much hype as it was the performance in ballistics gel. Kinda cool that there are so many people with access to property and gel screwing around and testing just about every round known to man so you can make as informed a decision as possible. The only 'hype' I liked is that it's designed to expand even if heavy clothing like denim plugs the hollow. Interesting that something like that could prevent some hollow points from doing their job, but I've seen ballistics gel tests that prove it can happen.

Oh, and apparently Lehigh saw fit to fix that issue of handgun rounds not over penetrating. Check these out:



That's quite a bit of hole punching power for a 9mm.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Obviously we dont carry here in blightly unless your a gangster so my knowledge is limited to my Army career, and I defer to all your expertise.
The standard issue for rounds is 5.56. When your hit with a 5.56 it will tumble causing internal injuries, unless hit multiple times or in the head you wont die, the reason why we use these rounds is that your oppo then has to look after you if youve been hit. Effectively causing more damage through moral etc. US issue M16s also use the 5.56 round.
Ak47 which are favoured by various countries use 7.62 rounds, if your hit with one of these you'll know about it as it spins pushing skin, bone, cartilage and everything out through the other side! Huge exit wounds...
Just my 10p worth.

While this is true in regards to rifle rounds, Military and civilian use are very much different applications. One can't exactly walk the streets with a 5.56 AR-15, it would be about 5-10 minutes around here before you were surrounded by 2-5 squad cars checking up on what you were doing and why. Likely with more than one gun trained on you in case you made a move said officers didn't like.

For the most part, long guns in general would be home defense only. And more often than not, for all the reasons Gssixgun stated, you'd probably be better off deferring to your pistol anyway. Most any long gun round .223/5.56 or higher will eliminate threats better than pistol rounds between 9mm/.38 and .45. But for civilian use pistols are effective enough to get the job done, while limiting collateral damage as much as possible.