I carry my kimber 1911 every where i go and have been a ccw permit holder for years.
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I carry my kimber 1911 every where i go and have been a ccw permit holder for years.
That's a really interesting question. Depends on where you look: some say that the 229 was designed for the .40 and that the .357 came later, while others say that it was designed with both rounds in mind. I was basing my statement on a statement from Massad Ayoob's book "The Gun Digest Book of SIG-Sauer: A Complete Look At SIG-Sauer Pistols", where he writes that the .40S&W P229 was introduced in 1992 and the .357Sig P229 was introduced two years later in 1994 (and I'm not one to disagree with Mr. Ayoob!). I've also read that the 229 was specifically designed for the .40 S&W cartridge, and that it was because they wanted to "get it right" that SIG-Sauer was one of the last gunmakers to bring a .40 model to market.
Whatever the case, I shot every .40 S&W I could get my hands on before I settled on the 229...I REALLY didn't want to spend that much money! But everything else was snappy and harsh compared to the SIG...and the others' muzzle flip was ridiculous! Besides that, the P-series pistols seem to fit my huge hands very well...I get an effortless sight picture from the draw, especially with the beavertail.
I wanted a 357 SIG for a while, but decided if I'm going to get a a different more expensive caliber I'll just go for a 10mm Glock 20....one day.
Really annoying when I hold a Sig and feel how much better it fits my hand. Then have to go back to my Glock.
I'm pretty sure Bruce Gray has made some 10mm P series from I think stainless frame P220s
You are right...I found pictures.
http://i.imgur.com/wSHKhVo.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Pf9iXsT.jpg
So nice! Starting price for the work (not including gun) was almost $1000 in 2008. Probably more now and still worth it.
Just an FYI on the .40 cal not sig related! You me mentioned the recoil and muzzle flip with .40. ... You should try shooting the Beretta PX4 Storm... It utilizes a rotating barrel kinda like a riffle rotating bolt! Its amazing how it tames the .40 cal cartridge! And there is virtually no muzzle flip! My gen 4 g23 is not bad either... The dual spring works really well
I love the XD's, I'd buy one now but unfortunately it's between a new gun and a new torque convertor, and I have to drive.
I've seen some very nice handguns here. It made me think. A CCW is something you have with the mindset that you're going to depend on that gun working flawlessly when you need it. Murphy's law says that when you do, other stuff will go wrong as well.
I've read that e.g. Glock is very reliable even in very bad conditions, such as wet and muddy environments. In my unqualified opinion, reliability like that would be of the highest interest. So how do some of these fancy handguns compare to something like a Glock in terms of reliability in bad circumstances? Will they all work after having fallen in a muddy puddle?
The 1911 is not a platform I recommend to a new gun owner as a carry piece.
The 1911 was the service duty pistol in the us military for a long time and when properly tuned and cared for is very reliable.
The XD line from Springfield is the Prvi Hrvatski Pištolj or First Croatian Pistol.
It is actually the HS2000.
The HS2000 was adopted by the Croatian military and law enforcement as a standard issue sidearm and continues to fill that role.
A very reliable platform, internally almost Identical to the Glock and it has a grip safely.
Smith & Wesson's M&P line is also proven and in use by several Law enforcement agencies.
Almost every carry piece I have seen mentioned here I would not hesitate to utilize.
As with any piece of equipment it has to be tested, preferably with the rounds you will be using,
and it needs to be maintained. It is a mechanical piece and can fail, it is not end all be all just a tool in your arsenal.
You are SOOOOO right Bruno, this is why I chose a Glock 26 with Crimson Trace laser for my wife to carry & my secondary carry gun (mine just has night sights, 3.5 lb connector, & extended slide release). All of our magazines have the Pearce +2 pinky extensions. She doesn't understand the concept that a handgun is a finely tuned machine, of which most don't like a dirty environment. The Glock is the AK-47 of the handgun world.
I actually did check out my Kimber Ultra CDP 1911 in a muddy puddle for three shots. I dipped it & really made an effort to get grit into it. I lifted it out of the puddle, gave it one good shake to ensure the barrel didn't have any sizeable obstructions & shot. My buddy said it looked like a bomb went off in my hand as muddy water misted out of it. I shot two more times after the first shot to ensure feed and reliability, but it was enough for me & I didn't want to subject it to more "torture" as it's not a cheap gun. I was amazed at how much of the mud I ended up wearing & also amazed at how much of a PITA it is to break down a weapon to every single minute part to properly clean it after such a test. It was a good test as I had gunk in every moving part. I bet I used a roll of paper towels & a box of q-tip ear swabs cleaning it. Doing this test really built a lot of confidence in my 1911 & I'm glad I did it. I have absolutely zero doubt that it would function if I ever had to use it...which I hope I never ever do. Kind of like a spare tire on the automobile, it's there...but I don't want to ever have to use it.
PA CCW, pretty easy to get here thankfully. I'm a smaller guy so I carry a Ruger LC9, hoping to get a Laserlyte for it soon. Also hoping to upgrade to a Glock soon if I can too much kick on the ruger. Also carry a flashlight, and a Kershaw Leek knife in my back pocket by my wallet. Can't carry at work, or on work property, thankfully my boss is pro second amendment and has stated that if its in my car and he doesn't know about it he knows nothing. I also never leave home without a set of lock picks, but that is just because I used to be a locksmith and my friends have a tendency to lock themselves out of their houses and cars.
I had a Sig 229 in .40. Sold it. Nice gun but ......... if (shudder) I could only have one to choose from, my Glock G-27 in .40 would still be what I'd pack.
I was intrigued with the 357 sig. I've read that they suffer from relatively early barrel erosion but I don't know that for a fact.
Bruno, this is a now famous 'torture test' for the Glock back years ago. I don't think there is a more reliable semi auto, though some may be as reliable.
Unofficial Glock Page
Jimmy the 357 sig is an awesome round. I switch barrels in my 226 between 40 and 357 sig, my p 239 is 357 sig I've got a few more than 20k rds down the tube on the 239. It won't hold a 1 inch group at 50 yds anymore but I can still keep all of them in the 10 ring. The accuracy started to drop a little at ~14k rds leveled off and been doing fine. To give some perspective my 9 mm target master 6 inch barrel went ~15k and crapped out. I had about 9 inch groups at 25 yds before I put a new one in.
The first thought to cross my mind after reading this was the punchline to the old "Wanna hear a dirty joke?"
"A white horse fell in a mud puddle."
Bruno, I think you have hit one point a lot of folks glance over concerning reliability. Glock has pretty well proven themselves in that arena, as have other manufacturers.
Personally, I carry my subcompact Springfield XD in .40, because I know that it will work each and every time I pull the trigger. I have no idea if it will take the same abuse as a Glock, though I suspect it would be pretty close. But short of being in a war zone in Siberia and firing thousands of rounds without stopping, cleaning or lubricating, it serves my purposes well.
One thing I will always recommend to anyone considering a firearm purchase is try and rent the exact gun you are interested in buying, and do so several times. Typically, a rental will have a high number of rounds through it, has probably been beat up a time or three and will probably not have as strict of a cleaning schedule or routine as a personally owned firearm. This lets you test, in part, how reliably the gun will perform should you buy one like it. Not to mention it gives you a feel for the way it fires, perceived recoil, ease of controls (mag release, slide lock, etc.) and most importantly, how it fits your hand.
SWMBO finally came with me to the range last weekend, and we rented a Diamondback .380 for her to shoot, as she is interested in a Ruger LCP. Since they didn't have an LCP, this was as close as they could come. We agreed to rent it, purchased a 50 round box of ammo for it and headed out to shoot. In the first 6 round magazine, I had to clear two failures to feed and one failure to extract. The second magazine had two more failures, one of each type, and only the first round fired had no issues. After the third shot (and second failure), I promptly dropped the magazine, unloaded it and took the gun and ammo back inside. They didn't charge for the rental, nor the ammo, since there were less than 10 shots fired with a slightly greater than 50% failure rate.
Needless to say, we won't be purchasing a Diamondback (though the LCP is still a possibility).
Now, it could have been the ammo, or just that the gun needed a good cleaning. But, I don't want a gun that is picky about ammo, nor one that has so many problems when a bit dirty. If I'm trusting my life to it, it needs to perform. If I shot 200 rounds at the range and got mugged on the way home (read:before cleaning), I need a gun that is up to the task of defending my life and well being.
Lucky for me, my XD is my daily carry gun, and it eats whatever I feed it and isn't afraid to get a little dirty. :)
In seriousness, the Glock 19 that I carry daily, gives me all the confidence that I need, should it fall in muddy water or whatever. My first concern is it's reputation for reliable feed, not dirt or water malfunction.
But,,,,,,
If I'm going specifically to the mud & sand to fight, then the Glock stays at home; then the Safe Queen, 1911 Colt Government Model Series 70 & a box of hardball, is the handgun of choice.
I love 1911s but i wouldnt carry one as my ccw! My beretta nano or my glock 23 !!! Why!? Here is why! No external safety!!!! Straight forward point and shoot and i know it will shoot every time i pull the trigger! Murphy's law is a bitch and in a stressful situation i dont want anything to prevent me from shootting! Yes you can practice all you want but ultimately simplicity is your best friend in those situations!!!! Just my .02! Thats why i dont like the shield and xds for carry either! Great guns but not for carrying
If you were a 1911 shooter, it would be reflex to remove thumb safety. I did five quick holster to target draws and as I am presenting the weapon in the last few inches is where I drop the thumb safety. I agree that a 1911 isn't for a beginning or novice shooter as a ccw (remember my buying my wife a Glock for her CCW), but for some it's just an old friend...who will never let you down.
I agree,
When I started carrying it was a 1911 type platform a Browning HP.
Never had an issue,
I have found during high stress drills and competition I still sweep for the safety and I don't anticipate letting that change.
The light callous on my thumb is a testament to that.
Dont get me wrong! I think that 1911s are the sexiest gun ever made! Love them! But i think every gun has its purpose thats all... You know! And would never ccw a 1911! I will compete with them! I will protect my house with one but i would not ccw with one of them!
Drills are not real life situation! You can practice drawing and flipping the safety off but you never know if you have to use your off hand (arm is jacked up or something) to draw and your 1911 doesn't have an abi safety! Now what! ? All the training down to the drain! Unless you have been in a life treating situation ... Nobody knows! In the military we do drills and more drills and more training! Prepping us for what we will see ! First time i heard a mortal fall and blow near enough you feel the blast! Then i understood that all the training was not what you really see and feel in a real situation! Now ccw! I had a knife put on my neck once from behind and a second guy had one in front of me! Just to get my jewelry! With all the adrenaline rushing .... !!! Do you think i wanted to have an extra mechanical part in my gun that i have to worry about!? Turns out i didnt even get a change to draw since i was taken by surprise and luckily all they wanted was my ring and then they ran! Training and practicing is great but until you actually have to draw... You wouldnt know! Are you really rdy to gamble your life and those of your family with the hope that you flick that safety and that it actually disengage!? I wont
Before Glock, Sig set the standard for reliability. They are still used in certain military applications, and passed extensive testing for that contract.
Regarding the 1911 reliability. When desert sand jammed up the Beretta M9s, it was the 1911 that the Marines turned to replace them. Maybe not the top in reliability, but certainly top tier handgun for hard use.
Reading this reminded me of a brutal test the folks over at Ballistics101 put a SIG P229 .357Sig through a while back. Here's an excerpt:
"The Sig Sauer motto is "To hell and back." We decided to bury it in the sand and jump on it several times. We then pulled it out ejected the magazine and dropped the gun and mag in a bucket of muddy water. Next we cycled the slide a few times and proceeded to shoot another 50 rounds flawlessly. We figured what the hay, stick it in the mud at the bottom of the bucket. We pulled it out again and without a rinse launched 50 more mud splattering rounds. Because we had to give it back, I wanted to field strip, rinse and lube the whole thing we left. My good intentions were wasted. No sooner did I finish, our team grabbed it and fired it again. I guess they were not finished with it yet. It was as if everyone was waiting for more trigger time with it. It was popular that day to say the least. Throughout the rest of the day the SIG continued to perform nonstop. We counted the empty boxes of 357 rounds. All the shooters included, we ran just under 1300 rounds. Some hollow point, some flat point. Some Cor-Bon, Hornady and Speer. We had not one failure to fire or failure to eject."
I guess that helps explain the SEAL's love for their SIGs, especially considering that they can use anything they choose!
:OT:HJ
I don't think we need to turn this into bashing thread. Everyone carries what they feel comfortable carrying. Let everyone post their gear. If you like their pistol,feel free to get all geeked up about it. If you don't like what they carry, it is ok to just keep that to yourself. As far as your anecdote goes, I would personally work on situational awareness, before I ever started worrying about mechanics. YMMV :shrug:
Nobody is bashing... I mentioned that i loved 1911s as much as much any other guns... I apologized if u thought we were bashing... We were just establishing our points on why we carry what we carry... And my anecdote... Yes indeed it was lack of attention on my part... I was young and untrained but still my point remains... I am not pro any particular gun... I love all guns... Glocks, 1911s, sig, etc!!! But every gun has its place and thats my opinion and mine alone... You can agree or disagree... No bashing... More like a friendly discussion
O.K.,,,,show & tell time guys ,,,,,,, Attachment 147371
Toys. :D
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Got light headed,,,,need to sit for a moment,,,,,:)
Alternate carry method. Also carry in an nra leather vest during winter.
S&W M&P .40cal - I absolutely love this weapon. No safety to concern yourself with.
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Completely understandable!!! :)Attachment 147379
Nice setup ,,,,,,,,,:tu
Tool box foam from sears on an old laptop hardcase! Lol the empty spot holds my safety glasses!
The two that took this little Doe,
and little man with the HK
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Yes! It is tool box foam made by craftsman... It is like 1/2 inch wide... I use a scalpel to cut it! First do the layout in the back side with a sharpie! And then cut! The back side has a tape like adhesive! We use these in the USAF for our tool boxes!
Thanks Robert, after this mad rush to the stores this weekend , I going to get some. I have a gun box that was cut for a model I don't have anymore, so I need to replace it.