Thread: One I'm working on, second attempt

I find it interesting that someone would say that 52100 is too abrasion resistant and yet recommend O1 as a very good razor steel. When heat treated PROPERLY for cutting tools of the type that we are talking about, o1 is considered by people who actually research such things (not me but others much more experienced that me) to have slightly superior abrasion resistance to 52100 het treated for cutting tool use because of the tungsten content and the resulting carbides, at the expense of some degree of fine edge holding ability. if you have 52100 that is too abrasion resistance, then you have probably heat treated it like if you were making roller bearings. That means big carbides, most if not all of the carbon in solution and probably some RA to boot, none of which are desirable for something like a razor OR a kitchen knife. You also give up some of that toughness that we allegedly do not need. Hence my previous comments about low temperature austenizing.

How hard is it. Some people forget that there can be a SIGNIFCANT difference in abrasion resistance with a simple steel like 1095 depending on whether you leave it too soft like the 55-57 Rc that you sometimes see on a lot of "tactical knives" and the 62+Rc that you see in say kitchen knives. Some very knowledgable folks will tell you that if your heat treat is dead on and yo are getting the maximum out of he steel, that you can take O1 up to as high as 63 for things like kitchen knives and you would be seeing some pretty serious abrasion resistance at that level or hardness. 61-63 for anything other than an chopper is just fine.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I have to agree with Bruno on this one. I'm just finishing a razor in 1095. It's the first time that I've not used 01. I have not honed it yet, so how I like it is yet to be seen, but I came to thinking that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides in the 01 were not helping the edge a bit and just creating an abrasion resistance that I was fighting through all of the post heat treat work and honing. As long as the steel takes a good edge and responds well to stropping, wear resistance is a negative IMO.

Originally Posted by JDM61

How hard is it. Some people forget that there can be a SIGNIFCANT difference in abrasion resistance with a simple steel like 1095 depending on whether you leave it too soft like the 55-57 Rc that you sometimes see on a lot of "tactical knives" and the 62+Rc that you see in say kitchen knives. Some very knowledgable folks will tell you that if your heat treat is dead on and yo are getting the maximum out of he steel, that you can take O1 up to as high as 63 for things like kitchen knives and you would be seeing some pretty serious abrasion resistance at that level or hardness. 61-63 for anything other than an chopper is just fine.

Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

Which makes it all the more interesting when some European smiths make very nice razors out of 115W8 which has more tungsten than even Hitachi Blue #2.

These guys aren't trying to put you down or question your knowledge, they are just trying to share theirs. I don't know where yours comes from, though you seem to have a fair bit, but I know theirs comes from razors, which is what you are trying to make. Take it or leave it, you'll learn something one way or the other.

My .02, and I know next to nothing about steel, is that your hardness range is beyond where most razors go because, as Bruno said, you don't need it for razors.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I have to agree with Bruno on this one. I'm just finishing a razor in 1095. It's the first time that I've not used 01. I have not honed it yet, so how I like it is yet to be seen, but I came to thinking that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides in the 01 were not helping the edge a bit and just creating an abrasion resistance that I was fighting through all of the post heat treat work and honing. As long as the steel takes a good edge and responds well to stropping, wear resistance is a negative IMO.

Fighting through the resistance is indeed a good description. when I made O1 razors a long time ago, I had to fight the blade.
Just yesterday I made a couple of new chisels for hammering in my mark (the old ones had kicked the bucket) and for that I used O1.
I'd have used 52100 if I had the correct size stock. O1 will do.

If I have to hit it with a hammer, I pick O1 over O2 every day of the week.
The right steel for each purpose.

For the same reason, stainless never really took off for razors. It's a lot tougher, and not as good for edges due to the carbides.
For my daughters and wife I make stainless kitchen knives, because they care nothing for carbon steel.
Stainless is not a better steel, but for the women in my house, the best steel for that purpose.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

They don't. No worries.

Originally Posted by JDM61

Which makes it all the more interesting when some European smiths make very nice razors out of 115W8 which has more tungsten than even Hitachi Blue #2.

Which has nothing to do with anything.
If I make a razor with a hamon, is it a better razor? of if I make it from Damascus? or suminagashi? or tamahagane?
Nope.

Want to know why I use those?
Because people ask me to. Or if I make them without an order, because I know people will buy them and I can make a profit.
I've seen blades by other European smiths with various types of steel, which are used only because a) they look nice, or b) they think it is better, or c) it's what they use for other things.
So your reference to what European smiths do has as much to do with this discussion as the price of bacon.
And most European smiths I know who made razors are knife guys, not razor guys. And then we're back to the fact that most knife guys are clueless about razors.

You're again trying to show off, dropping names, calling on external validation and posting meaningless steel trivia in an effort to... what?

Originally Posted by Bruno

in an effort to... what?

I could ask the same question.........

Half-time boys, swap sides