Thread: What Do You Think About The Shapton 30K

Hint:

Look at the hones that have been mentioned the most in this thread

Shapton 16k = .92 ~

G20K = "The numbers presented today here" = .50 ~

Shapton 30k = .49 ~



Am I the only one that notices an slight mathematical error here ?????

Once again I will say it

The numbers mean nothing unless you are comparing to the same series of hones..

I wouldn't say the particle size numbers mean nothing, but I agree they should obviously not be taken as an absolute measure of the fineness of the stones from different manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Steve56

the smoothest edges seem to come from stones that are not the ultimate in fineness, ie the Thuringian and coticule come to mind, in the JNat lineup, many people prefer the edge off a kiita versus a finer, harder asagi, me included.

I don't. I always finish on my hard Asagi or a 20k Gok. The is 20k is very hard for a synth & the Asagi is harder.
My point is you can't generalise, especially with Jnats.

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Some razors will not tolerate it, such as old Sheffields ...... with crumbly, bubbly pitted old steel.

There, fixed it for ya Tom i gotta say I don't have trouble with old Sheffileds & the 2 finishers I mention above.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Because I have already gone down this rabbit hole over and over and over you have fun searching all this out,,, Hint : all the info is here on SRP

*Break-Break**

Now "Have Fun" searching out all that, it really is all quite obvious and is all found right here on SRP

Well, I've done my research, and gssixgun is right in saying that this discussion has already been covered in this forum, although most of these threads are date from before I had ever heard of this forum...

Abrasive Grit Comparison Sheet from 2009

naniwa combo vs norton combo from 2011

naniwa vs norton from 2012 Badger & Blade

Naniwa 8k vs Norton 8K from 2012 Razor and Stone

Norton 4/8 vs. Naniwa 3/8 from 2013

And many of these threads also link to other articles and documents... So I fully agree that this discussion has already been had, but I'm not so sure that the answer is as obvious as you say.

Objectively, for the engineer side of my brain, the biggest piece of the puzzle seems to be the reason why the particle size of a Norton 8k is supposedly different than the particle size of a Naniwa 8k, if they both use the same JIS grit scale? (reference, source documents from Naniwa and from Norton, found in threads above)

Subjectively, for the practical application, different people seem to have their own opinion on which hone provides a better shave between a Norton 8k, Naniwa 5k or even Naniwa 8k. I do not own any Naniwa, so I can't compare for myself, hence why I was asking about the comparison.

I guess the final answer is just going to be the ever so famous "YMMV"

Right, because particle size isn't the only piece of the puzzle. Binder, abrasive particle size, abrasive particle shape, how far the abrasive particles stick up above the mean surface of the stone, and abrasive type all have their role in how a stone cuts and the finish it produces.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Moved to "Hones"

I think it is most often misused, and misunderstood BTW

Originally Posted by engine46

Well, for those who own a 30K, I think one can overdo it. It might take just a few very light strokes on a 30K as opposed to many strokes which could make it too sharp. Just a few very light strokes on it to put a slight polish on it would probably be all it needs if that. Any more than that might make it too sharp & could be irritable & make the edge more prone to chip more easily also. I'm not saying not to own one because several people do but if so to use it efficiently & very little. That's just my opinion & I hope it makes sense.

Well, this has been a very interesting thread & if anyone out there DOES own a Shapton 30K, watch Glen's Shapton Video #3 & he shows how very little he uses his 30K:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tL-qfTQ78Y

Using it in the way he does, it will last you a long, long time!

My honing mentor was/is possibly the most knowledgeable stone guy out there & if he's not the most knowledgeable, he's in the top for sure. Many of us know him as Sham, he was here on SRP at one time as HibudGL IIRC. Most of the older guys here know him and respect his knowledge and for those lucky enough, know his edges. Sham not only taught me to hone, he taught me to chase an edge. When I obtained my 30K years ago, I played around with it quite a bit and formed an opinion & sent it to him. He spent some time on the stone and concluded a few things: this stone is not for new honers (those who have successfully honed less than 100 razors), this stone is for very hard razors, this stone can easily impart a fragile edge.

I am one of the largest Shapton GS waterstone fans, however this is one stone that I have sold and never looked back. IMO, it's not very good for straight razors...as a matter of a fact it's only good for the hardest steel razors.

Most of the time this conversation comes up, it's from a person relatively new at the stones. It's in most of our nature to feel that if we have the "best" and "finest" available, then making a razor shave ready should be a cake walk. This is where our lack of knowledge/experience and male ego hurts us. The fact remains: If you can't get a quality shave off of 8K, you...not the razor, need more work.

As far as synthetics go, the G-20 is as fine as I will go & is a great finisher for most razors. It's versatile & should last a lifetime. I know the "charts" say this and that...but the blades say what matters.

Well this is a fascinating thread. The hunt for the perfect edge. But bear in mind, that honing a razor isn't rocket science.

40 years ago every barber in the world knew how to hone any kind of razor perfectly.

They didn't have fortunes to buy exotic hones. They simply used the tools at hand. Mostly coticules and thüringian hones as finishers. Most barbers only had two hones, the first a bevelsetter in the 1k range.

What they did have, was time and practice. And that's the key to the perfect edge. Practice over and over again.

Athletes in the Olympic practice up to 10.000 hours to master their sport. Any good craftsman must do the same. I'm a electrian and my apprenticeship was 4,5 years. It took further 2 years for me to become master. And Denmark, where I went to school, has some of the worlds best educations system.

I been honing knifes and razors since I was a boy, nearly 35 years now. I was taught the craft from my father and my two grandfathers one a smith and the other a wood carver.

Today I can hone almost any razor out there, but once in a while I come across a razor that is degraded to much, or one where the steel is to bad a quality.

I got MANY hones, because I collect them like many on this great forum, but I usually finish on my grandfathers old coticule. When honing a new razor, or when I do a restore, as I mustly do, I use the Naniwa SS 1k, 3k and 8k first.

When the steel is very hard, as on Swedish razors or newer Germans it's possibly to go higher in the grid. Using complete control a Sharpton 30k can polish an edge further, but it is very easy to overhone the edge or making it to brittle.

And thou I tried to go down that road I find that my coticule leaves a smoother edge that is more comfortable shaving with. Some razors I only finish on my favourite Ecsher, a heirloom from my woodcarving grandfather.

Therefore I sold my Sharpton 30k. It is possible to use it on the right razor. It all comes down to the steel and the craftsmanship of the honer.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Moved to "Hones"

I think it is most often misused, and misunderstood BTW

Originally Posted by Kristian

Well this is a fascinating thread. The hunt for the perfect edge. But bear in mind, that honing a razor isn't rocket science.

40 years ago every barber in the world knew how to hone any kind of razor perfectly.

They didn't have fortunes to buy exotic hones. They simply used the tools at hand. Mostly coticules and thüringian hones as finishers. Most barbers only had two hones, the first a bevelsetter in the 1k range.

What they did have, was time and practice. And that's the key to the perfect edge. Practice over and over again.

Athletes in the Olympic practice up to 10.000 hours to master their sport. Any good craftsman must do the same. I'm a electrian and my apprenticeship was 4,5 years. It took further 2 years for me to become master. And Denmark, where I went to school, has some of the worlds best educations system.

I been honing knifes and razors since I was a boy, nearly 35 years now. I was taught the craft from my father and my two grandfathers one a smith and the other a wood carver.

Today I can hone almost any razor out there, but once in a while I come across a razor that is degraded to much, or one where the steel is to bad a quality.

I got MANY hones, because I collect them like many on this great forum, but I usually finish on my grandfathers old coticule. When honing a new razor, or when I do a restore, as I mustly do, I use the Naniwa SS 1k, 3k and 8k first.

When the steel is very hard, as on Swedish razors or newer Germans it's possibly to go higher in the grid. Using complete control a Sharpton 30k can polish an edge further, but it is very easy to overhone the edge or making it to brittle.

And thou I tried to go down that road I find that my coticule leaves a smoother edge that is more comfortable shaving with. Some razors I only finish on my favourite Ecsher, a heirloom from my woodcarving grandfather.

Therefore I sold my Sharpton 30k. It is possible to use it on the right razor. It all comes down to the steel and the craftsmanship of the honer.

I agree. I think that they are a useful stone to have but are used on rare occasion on certain straights & as Glen said, they are quote "most often misused, and misunderstood BTW". I think that they just need very few strokes & one can over hone a razor on them, making the edge brittle from being too sharp. Good post Kristian!

I have read through the above few pages of posts, mainly because I am torn between which stone I want... the 20k gok, or the 30k shap.
I own 500 1k 4k 8k 16k glass, and a full line of naniwa supers... and waaaay too many others. In my defense, I am a long time knife guy!

I have a couple very pretty Jnats, some coticules and a really nice black ark that I love, but for whatever reason I get my best results going synthetic... always have. Perhaps its because I have a very coarse beard, and sensitive skin I need that sharpness.

Anyway... I want a stone that I can shave directly off from comfortably... I know you guys always say "get a good shave off this or that stone"
But when you say "shave off" do you mean, from a wet razor straight to your face, or after a quick strop up on linen+leather? I want to be able to go from stone to face, nothing in between.
I can't quiiiite do that, my best results come off the 10k super stone, followed by a stropman strop with Crox, then Iron ox then linen+leather. 12k super stone I have not mastered yet.

Don't know which to go for... I would like to have a full shapton set buuut... it would be nice to spend less money haha