Thread: Apache Black Gila

I think you guys both have some reasonable points, but might be off base in some ways as well. I think arguing with each other about some youtube video you got into a spat on is taking the thread way off topic. I can maybe see how Dave commenting on the value or lack of might be relevant...it's an opinion on the stone itself...even if he hasn't handled it...or any of them, he was at least honest about that point. Going back and forth arguing about personal differences of opinion on a completely unrelated stone makes no sense though. I understand his point about overpricing based on hype. This stone may or may not fall into that category...in his opinion it does, and that is helpful in that it puts a reality check on things, even if it's based on an opinion that isn't based on physically handling the stone.

I value Keith's input on this stone. He has one, and has used it along with hundreds more stones than I have. His comparative expertise is/was invaluable as a starting point for me in this case. Will my results be the same as his? Maybe? Maybe not. We don't have the same rock (this applies to ANY natural stone). That doesn't make him wrong in regards to MY stone. The good thing is, it seems our stones perform similarly. In talking to Terry and others, the important 'visual' clue to this stone is the black with white flecks. The other colors don't really seem to have any impact on its efficiency or character, other than aesthetically (Keith's stone is a stunning piece lol).

Anyway, this has the opportunity to be a really good thread. I LOVE the back and forth...differences of opinion make the world go round and honestly, are where we learn the most (outside of hands on)...but can we please keep it mostly on topic?

Originally Posted by CrisAnderson27

I think you guys both have some reasonable points, but might be off base in some ways as well. I think arguing with each other about some youtube video you got into a spat on is taking the thread way off topic. I can maybe see how Dave commenting on the value or lack of might be relevant...it's an opinion on the stone itself...even if he hasn't handled it...or any of them, he was at least honest about that point. Going back and forth arguing about personal differences of opinion on a completely unrelated stone makes no sense though. I understand his point about overpricing based on hype. This stone may or may not fall into that category...in his opinion it does, and that is helpful in that it puts a reality check on things, even if it's based on an opinion that isn't based on physically handling the stone.

I value Keith's input on this stone. He has one, and has used it along with hundreds more stones than I have. His comparative expertise is/was invaluable as a starting point for me in this case. Will my results be the same as his? Maybe? Maybe not. We don't have the same rock (this applies to ANY natural stone). That doesn't make him wrong in regards to MY stone. The good thing is, it seems our stones perform similarly. In talking to Terry and others, the important 'visual' clue to this stone is the black with white flecks. The other colors don't really seem to have any impact on its efficiency or character, other than aesthetically (Keith's stone is a stunning piece lol).

Anyway, this has the opportunity to be a really good thread. I LOVE the back and forth...differences of opinion make the world go round and honestly, are where we learn the most (outside of hands on)...but can we please keep it mostly on topic?

I agree completely!! When we don't all have to be best buddies, that's when we actually get to the bottom of things. That was my point in saying I would burn bridges (even if they don't exist) because I don't think there are enough "brakes" in some of the discussion. Usually the people who are the brakes lose interest and go away. It occurs in the woodworking community, too.

You guys are both right about if the cost isn't an issue and you never plan to sell, then it really doesn't matter at all. You can buy what you like, and I've been in that boat with some things, too. Anyone want to buy an infill plane for a kit cost that's more than the finished plane is worth? (yeah, i've got one of those, just kidding about the for sale part, though. $600 kit plus 45 hours of building it makes for a plane worth about $400).

I make the comment originally because I think there is a lot of virtue in looking at:
* Why did people choose the stones they chose when the market was deep and there were a lot of options and a whole lot of purchasers to buy them
* I've been on the back side of selling things where they are the latest and greatest when I get them, the retailer disappears and the bottom falls out of the market for the items

I think the latter part is worth considering, as much as we all like to keep everything, eventually you run out of space, and space can force you to sell things.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I agree completely!! When we don't all have to be best buddies, that's when we actually get to the bottom of things. That was my point in saying I would burn bridges (even if they don't exist) because I don't think there are enough "brakes" in some of the discussion. Usually the people who are the brakes lose interest and go away. It occurs in the woodworking community, too.

You guys are both right about if the cost isn't an issue and you never plan to sell, then it really doesn't matter at all. You can buy what you like, and I've been in that boat with some things, too. Anyone want to buy an infill plane for a kit cost that's more than the finished plane is worth? (yeah, i've got one of those, just kidding about the for sale part, though. $600 kit plus 45 hours of building it makes for a plane worth about $400).

I make the comment originally because I think there is a lot of virtue in looking at:
* Why did people choose the stones they chose when the market was deep and there were a lot of options and a whole lot of purchasers to buy them
* I've been on the back side of selling things where they are the latest and greatest when I get them, the retailer disappears and the bottom falls out of the market for the items

I think the latter part is worth considering, as much as we all like to keep everything, eventually you run out of space, and space can force you to sell things.

I like this.

In regards to your first point, I think I touched on that in the very first response I made to you. In a time when EVERY man who shaved his face, did so with a straight razor...only the most economically successful companies 'marketed' anything. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have a world where word could be spread about a product nearly instantaneously. A 'new' stone in Podunk MO, had probably been being used in New York for five years, and in Paris for twenty. Now, a new stone from Cottonwood AZ, can be in the hands of twenty people across the world within a week. The other factor to consider is that Terry is a one man show, as has been pointed out. It's economically viable for him to take advantage of a vein of stone that may only provide a hundred usable hones at best. Back in 1864, this business model simply wouldn't make sense. I totally understand your point in that established stones are established for a reason. I just don't think it applies in regards to today's world in an apples to apples fashion.

The latter part is definitely worth considering. That said...if the product performs...it performs. Will a Black Gila always be worth $250? Maybe...maybe it will climb in value as the availability drops? Maybe it will plummet like a...well, rock lol. All I can say is that as a person using one of these stones right now...I wouldn't trade it. Nor would I sell it. It's unique, and it works...and there's always the chance that the next one I get might not (it's a natural stone, there's duds in every brand of natural on the planet). Honestly, I feel like my stone is worth MORE, because to me, it's proven. So far, (unlike the Strata...which from my understanding Terry works very hard to warranty) I haven't heard of a single Black Gila yet that didn't work, and work well. For me this adds value as well for a new consumer who is looking to buy one. Enough to make them worth $250? Maybe? Maybe not? In the end that is very subjective. I can honestly say that for me, even for $250...in today's market of high priced rocks?...the stone would be worth it.

Originally Posted by CrisAnderson27

I like this.

In regards to your first point, I think I touched on that in the very first response I made to you. In a time when EVERY man who shaved his face, did so with a straight razor...only the most economically successful companies 'marketed' anything. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have a world where word could be spread about a product nearly instantaneously. A 'new' stone in Podunk MO, had probably been being used in New York for five years, and in Paris for twenty. Now, a new stone from Cottonwood AZ, can be in the hands of twenty people across the world within a week. The other factor to consider is that Terry is a one man show, as has been pointed out. It's economically viable for him to take advantage of a vein of stone that may only provide a hundred usable hones at best. Back in 1864, this business model simply wouldn't make sense. I totally understand your point in that established stones are established for a reason. I just don't think it applies in regards to today's world in an apples to apples fashion.

The latter part is definitely worth considering. That said...if the product performs...it performs. Will a Black Gila always be worth $250? Maybe...maybe it will climb in value as the availability drops? Maybe it will plummet like a...well, rock lol. All I can say is that as a person using one of these stones right now...I wouldn't trade it. Nor would I sell it. It's unique, and it works...and there's always the chance that the next one I get might not (it's a natural stone, there's duds in every brand of natural on the planet). Honestly, I feel like my stone is worth MORE, because to me, it's proven. So far, (unlike the Strata...which from my understanding Terry works very hard to warranty) I haven't heard of a single Black Gila yet that didn't work, and work well. For me this adds value as well for a new consumer who is looking to buy one. Enough to make them worth $250? Maybe? Maybe not? In the end that is very subjective. I can honestly say that for me, even for $250...in today's market of high priced rocks?...the stone would be worth it.

My first response was submitted, too, after reading the info page and seeing that stones might be more in the $400 range.

I've got stones more than $400. Some of them I wouldn't get rid of, but some of them I wish I hadn't bought, but I'll get buried with them rather than beg someone to buy them for half or a third of what I paid. It's just the way it goes. We all get different things out of it. I like forums most where people don't have to mind their manners so much and we all say what we think. I went on the train of "keep on the sunnyside" like many do, because that's the theme in almost any hobby forum.

And regardless of what I think, if you get the tingles when you use your stone (and I have a couple that give me the tingles), it matters none what I think (that's true whether you get the tingles or not, mine's just an opinion worth no more than anyone else's). If you get the tingles, though, you can't ask for a lot more. When 90% of the people who use a stone get the tingles on a very large assumption (y/g escher for example), then it's really really something.

And when you have stones that everyone thinks a different thing about them....

...that's coticules.

I find a lot of the time unless the reputation of something of something is in the toilet, you can still get roughly equivalent value. I've done cash/item trades as well and got fair value back. Sometimes, it's more a liquidity thing than a people wanting something thing. If you look at the ones he has sold, it gives a good idea of the price sweet spot for early adopters, but I think since this seems to be a side project for him, he is fine with parking some on there, but he is the person to answer that. I think the party piece of this stone besides no slurry is the character of the edge you get is usually reserved to stones with much slower behavior than this. Once you have the rock set up and the touch down it is as simple as making toast and I appreciate that.

There aren't too many variations in natural stones, in terms of the hardness of particles once you get to either the sedimentary types or the novaculite types (unless you include something like coticules/garnets or naturally occurring corundum).

If the non-slurrying stones are fast, at some point they will have to come back to earth because the silicas and novaculites all get dull when they're held in place.

It'll be interesting to see what all of the early adopters think after the stones have been around for 5 years.

Not necessarily. Pierre La Lune is extremely aggressive and it is like a loopy halfbreed slate. Like God's barber hone.

I have no idea what this stuff is, but it ain't no thing to refresh a surface once in a blue moon, really.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

Not necessarily. Pierre La Lune is extremely aggressive and it is like a loopy halfbreed slate. Like God's barber hone.

I'd like to see scratches from a lalune - anything that aggressive is usually that way because either the particles are large or there is an open mesh on the surface of the stone. There aren't too many secrets in natural hones when it comes to fast cutting vs. fine cutting.

Tomonagura has some from basic testing. I never invested in a scope. Sham's forum may have some also