Thread: Apache Black Gila

Originally Posted by DaveW

It may have natural alumina in it.

Pressure sensitivity probably has more to do with the overhardness of the razors.

I saw the first post you had here too, and can get on board with the diamond thing to an extent. Natural alumina is definitely another thought. The hardness of the razors certainly has something to do with it as well. Harder razors also tend to like softer stones in my experience..so I'm sure that plays a part. This thing chews Gold Dollars up and spits out little HHT5 gems of delight lol. The Kikuboshi was tougher, and my W2 stuff was even more difficult, though the end result was spectacular once I got it down. The glycerin definitely came into play there for me, at my current honing skill level.

Again, the best word I can use to describe the feel and look of the material is ultra fine green/black ceramic...like a ceramic knife blade or a ceramic honing rod.

Originally Posted by CrisAnderson27

I saw the first post you had here too, and can get on board with the diamond thing to an extent. Natural alumina is definitely another thought. The hardness of the razors certainly has something to do with it as well. Harder razors also tend to like softer stones in my experience..so I'm sure that plays a part. This thing chews Gold Dollars up and spits out little HHT5 gems of delight lol. The Kikuboshi was tougher, and my W2 stuff was even more difficult, though the end result was spectacular once I got it down. The glycerin definitely came into play there for me, at my current honing skill level.

Again, the best word I can use to describe the feel and look of the material is ultra fine green/black ceramic...like a ceramic knife blade or a ceramic honing rod.

If the glycerin makes it better, I'd use it always, regardless of your status honing. I've got certain stones that you can coax an edge out without a thicker medium, but it comes out on autopilot on the thicker medium. That's the way to go on a stone that doesn't absorb it.

Personally, on the diamond thing, if the stone absorbs 1/2 micron diamond and holds it in place, that's not necessarily a bad thing. On the machinist side of things, once diamond is in a plate, the only way to get it out is to remachine the plate surface.

I've got one kikuboshi, only one. Its behavior is like yours. We remove so little material from razors, so I don't know if it's because it's too hard or what (on a tool, you remove more material and the removal rate is easier to see). I tend to think it might be overhard (mine is also phoenix steel, which I don't think really amounts to much, but who knows? I think its' all in the hardness). It will not hold an edge at the stock spine angle, but a couple of layers of tape and I've been honing with it for 5 months now without anything other than the linen and the edge is pin straight with not the slightest anomaly in it. I am tempted at some point (I've never gone past about 200 or 250 shaves with a razor without rehoning due to getting a new stone).

Anyway, I'm tempted to try to run it to a thousand shaves or something, it's still keen enough to cause razorburn if pressure is too much, but the linen-ed edge is so smooth that a guy who just uses it with a little care will love the shave. It doesn't have that bite that a freshly honed razor does, but it removes the hair just as easily - none of the increased effort that a smooth edge is sometimes associated with (like a coticule). It wipes everything clean in the first pass without hanging up and without leaving anything behind.

If you had the paste on the apache strata, is that behaving any differently than when you were just using it? I know that has a reputation of being pretty hysterically hard also

The glycerin definitely helps, even on the softer razors...so I can definitely get on board with using it always lol.

I haven't even started on strops yet, lol. I made a compressed horse butt strop for myself (spent 2hrs rolling in the leather...the difference was VERY noticeable from start to finish), and have both a hard felt and cotton linen webbing backer for it. I prefer the linen to the felt, but the horse butt provides the smoothest, sharpest end result. Generally I'll do 5 or so cleaning strokes on the felt, 10 to 15 prep strokes on the linen, then finish with 20 strokes on the horse butt. It makes HUGE differences even on slightly dull razors. It's like you said, if you have an edge at all, the strop will fix it.

That's one reason I haven't been using it while testing these stones lol.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

If you had the paste on the apache strata, is that behaving any differently than when you were just using it? I know that has a reputation of being pretty hysterically hard also

It's not paste actually...it's a spray that comes out of an atomizer, and seems to be water based rather than oil based. 10ct 0.5 micron 'heavy concentration' diamond spray. I initially bought it for loading balsa strops for kitchen knives...but as a lapping compound the stuff is amazing.

And no, the Strata acts precisely as it did prior to using the diamond (I scrubbed it judiciously as well...hot soapy water and a soft 3m pad). The Strata is also nowhere near the Gila in hardness. The tip of a 64HRC W2 kitchen knife will scratch into the back of my Strata with only moderate pressure. It colors on the back of the Gila like a lead pencil with the same pressure. Seriously.

Think of the Strata as like ultra compressed, very hard/brittle, ultra fine chalk. So compressed it will take a mirror polish (because it does). You know what your Gila is like lol. This illustrates the differences pretty accurately.

ETA ~ The Strata also still cuts at this level of polish. Again...it could be from the micro fine diamond particles still being embedded...but it did before when it was mirror polished without the diamonds (rubbed it against an Apache Red with slurry from the Strata until it was reflective). I think the key to keeping them working with the high level of polish is the free abrasives keeping the matrix of the stone open, vs the burnishing effect just rubbing a stone against another fixed polishing medium can have.

I noticed another of these sold. If it's someone here, please post your experiences positive /negative once you have worked with it.

If the spray acts anything like silicon carbide grit of larger size, would you really expect anything apart from the odd stray grit to get lodged in any given stone, particularly stuff that hard?

Originally Posted by kcb5150

If the spray acts anything like silicon carbide grit of larger size, would you really expect anything apart from the odd stray grit to get lodged in any given stone, particularly stuff that hard?

I myself don't believe that the diamond is still lodged in the stone, but I won't deny it's a possibility. I'm not noticing a difference in performance/cutting efficiency at the smoother level of polish. I DO notice that the stone feels completely different. More like glycerin on glass, vs the heavier drag that I experienced at the lower level of polish. That said, the edges are stellar...they look different (less 'scratch' if that makes sense), and they feel smoother when pushed across the back of my hand, or on the bottom of my forearm from wrist to elbow. Less 'catchy/jumpy'...but just as sharp. A friend clued me into those tests as an approximation of shaving my neck and under my chin, and man...it's close to the exact same feel. It doesn't even matter if there's hair there...it's the feel across your skin you're testing. If you did your job you know it's sharp off the HHT, and treetopping arm hair etc. I've had some razors that were quite sharp (not noticeably sharper than these), tear the hell out of the back of my hand, and literally razor burn my forearm. These just feel 'better'. It has translated directly to the quality of shave as well.

I may explore pushing the surface of mine when I have some time and some loose sic powder since there is a pit on mine that is shallow I wouldn't mind deleting.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

I may explore pushing the surface of mine when I have some time and some loose sic powder since there is a pit on mine that is shallow I wouldn't mind deleting.

I would like to make mine completely flat...but I don't think glass or granite will do it. It seems to round the edges down a bit more than the center. Probably some factor of the physics of lapping an ultra hard stone I'm unaware of lol. I may see about taking it to a lapidary and have it flattened. Shouldn't cost much, and would only need done once. I could then open the surface back up on 1200 grit SiC, and proceed with my own polishing regimen.

I also thought about mounting it to a vibratory/orbital type sander and limiting the circular motion over the SiC. I think that might eliminate the overgrinds towards the edges as well.

Dead flat is a big ask with loose grit. You eventually have to cross over to something fixed to get it perfect.