Thread: New Arkansas stones...

Originally Posted by sbogill

Man I look forward to it. I sincerely hope you are right. May I take it then that you have years of experience honing on Arkansas stones? Then if you don't know what I'm talking about when I say that you can feel the draw on the stone become lighter then that would make me suspect of your skills and/or technique. Again I'm not trying to be argumentative. If anything you are the one who went kind of nasty with regard to the newbie comments.


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Well, I will jump in. I find it odd that you say you know when you are done because the draw decreases. In my experience the draw increases as the bevel begins making better contact with the hone.

--says the guy who regularly uses a microscope a lot.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, I will jump in. I find it odd that you say you know when you are done because the draw decreases. In my experience the draw increases as the bevel begins making better contact with the hone.

--says the guy who regularly uses a microscope a lot.

I know the sensation you are taking about. I used to get a lot of sticktion when honing on an ILR. I don't really get that much sticktion on my Arkies. I would say none on the soft and hard and just a little on the black.

--says the guy who regularly shaves a lot.


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I recently posted some findings of mine that have correlated to spectacular coticule edges. I also had a chance to play with a soft arkansas I purposely lapped at a much lower grit to see if it could set a bevel. My king 1k also had the same feedback—

The more draw, the better edge, FOR ME. I can't speak for everyone here, but I can share my experience, and it matches that of Utopian's. If I can max out on draw, I start really concentrating on removing as much pressure as possible. Even though I've been honing on my coticule for two years—if you read some of my recent posts, I really unlocked the mystery only recently, including going back to basics. I follow a progression (all natural, as of late), but the process is still the same—I pretend as if the stone I'm using is the only thing I can use to get shave ready. Not do I want to, but *COULD* I shave with this bevel? *COULD* I shave with this 4k? *COULD* I shave with this 8k? And draw is definitely something I'm looking for. Oh yes, that feedback changed everything for me. When undercut happens, then draw, then that noise on some stones, like a whisper, good lord I'm happy.

Originally Posted by sbogill

I know the sensation you are taking about. I used to get a lot of sticktion when honing on an ILR. I don't really get that much sticktion on my Arkies. I would say none on the soft and hard and just a little on the black.

--says the guy who regularly shaves a lot.


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For what it's worth, I get more stiction on my soft and hard Arks than on my: PHIG, Welsh Slates (I have 3), Norton 8K, and either of my barber hones. To the point where I almost can't move the razor across the stones.

Originally Posted by AlienEdge

I don't see the point in a hundred laps either. I have seen on the site where people give other people advice or recommend 40 laps of this and 20 laps of that I don't agree with it because I think it causes people to set and count 1, 2, 3, .....41 !!!!!!!!! Possibly like a boy scout trying to build a fire. Then they find something is not working out.

I agree, and to a degree I had a problem with this myself some time ago - I was trying to be too mechanical with something that requires a dynamic touch. The edge needs what it needs, not 40 laps on this stone, or 20 on that stone. Your low number of strokes on a translucent did catch me off guard though, especially after the mention of barber hones. I've yet to put any of my translucents to use, but I've got a pair of barber hones I've broken out a time or 2, and they can do a lot in a mere 4-8 strokes, incredibly fast little buggers. By comparison, most* reports I've seen about translucents (all I have to go on, since I've yet to put them to the test) are from an 8K stone or equivalent, and taking high double digits to 200 laps. So you could see where my surprise came in when they were compared to a barber hone.

Of course one also has to remember that you use your arks as-is, not burnished like most...out of curiosity, do you refresh your stone's surface with anything when you feel it gets slow?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

The number of laps you need on a finishing Ark, like a Hard Black or Translucent, depend on the preparation of the bevel up to that point and the prep on the finish stone. Burnished stones are slower, but finer cutting.

If you are doing full Ark progression, you will need to do more finish laps, depending on how many you did on the middle stone, the transition stone.

The first stone the bevel setter, shapes the bevels and leaves deep stria. The middle stone, begins the polishing process, removing the deep stria and straightening the edge, (transitioning from shaping to polishing). The finish stone removes the middle stones stria and straightens the edge further, for a silky smooth shaving edge. If you leave deep stria on the bevel, you will have a chippy edge.

Now days, I use an Ark, to finish after a 12K or even a 20kGS. So, the edge is very finished/polished and probably going backwards in grit. The number of laps needed is not as many, because the only stria on the bevel is 12 or 20k. The finished bevel shows no stria and is a hazy (Kazumi) bevel and the edge laser straight and chip free.

The number of laps depends on what the edge needs and what was done up to that point. Just look at it. The bevels could feel smooth on the stone and the edge can still be chippy, depending on what was done in the progression.

Micro bevels work very well with hard Arks also, because of the slow cutting of a burnished stone. Just finish on a synthetic up to 8 or 12k, then add a layer of tape and do 5-10 laps on the finishing Ark. You should have a very narrow secondary bevel and a keen smooth edge.

Very true, if setting a micro bevel or coming off a 12K or 20K stone it likely wouldn't take much since you're dialing it back a touch. But I believe AlienEdge mentioned before that he uses a full Ark progression? Another reason his low lap count kinda shocked me.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yep

My thought is almost the same,, Magnification can find issues,,, but it cannot tell you how the edge "Feels"

While I don't dispute this, if there's a problem exists that can be found under magnification does that not also mean that blade (at least in theory) doesn't feel as good as it could?

I kinda like where this thread is going. If we take the discussion in the right way.

the issue: is draw required for you to produce a shave ready result?

Originally Posted by J743

I kinda like where this thread is going. If we take the discussion in the right way.

the issue: is draw required for you to produce a shave ready result?

My stones are brand new and not burnished yet. Maybe they'll get more sticktion in time. None of them look glassy yet. I do know the swishing sound poster a couple of messages prior was talking about. I can tell you point blank that the sticktion is not required for a shave ready edge as my edges are quite shave ready. If they continue to get better in time then hey I'm all for that. I only wish I had more razors to hone. I love it. It is totally relaxing to me.


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Well, my soft and hard Arks aren't burnished either. My soft might have bits of coticule plugging up the pores on the side I used for slurry experiments, but the hard stone is as-received. I didn't prep the surface at all, just rounded the edges on one side and beveled the other so I could tell the 2 apart.

I heavy draw necessary? Well, I suppose that depends on what level of stone we're talking about. For a soft or hard stone? I would say probably, since this indicates your razor is making maximum contact with the stone and your edge is as good as it will get (or very close to). For a translucent or black? Well, that depends on how you like the edge of your razor.

For the here and now I've discovered that my honing and stropping skills have outstripped my shaving skills. A proper edge from a Norton 8K or PHIG puts quite a bit of razor burn on my face due to bad habits (high pressure, high angles) formed while shaving with half-correct edges. If I took a blade to the translucent with intent to max it out to the best of my ability, I would either be lobster red with razor burn or making a post in the Cut of The Day thread. Probably better for now to just let that dog lie lol.

I think we are on different pages with regard to our terms and definitions. For instance what I think is light sticktion you might think is heavy sticktion etc. I can't believe that two peoples experiences could be that different with the same equipment.


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Originally Posted by Marshal

Well, my soft and hard Arks aren't burnished either. My soft might have bits of coticule plugging up the pores on the side I used for slurry experiments, but the hard stone is as-received. I didn't prep the surface at all, just rounded the edges on one side and beveled the other so I could tell the 2 apart.

I heavy draw necessary? Well, I suppose that depends on what level of stone we're talking about. For a soft or hard stone? I would say probably, since this indicates your razor is making maximum contact with the stone and your edge is as good as it will get (or very close to). For a translucent or black? Well, that depends on how you like the edge of your razor.

For the here and now I've discovered that my honing and stropping skills have outstripped my shaving skills. A proper edge from a Norton 8K or PHIG puts quite a bit of razor burn on my face due to bad habits (high pressure, high angles) formed while shaving with half-correct edges. If I took a blade to the translucent with intent to max it out to the best of my ability, I would either be lobster red with razor burn or making a post in the Cut of The Day thread. Probably better for now to just let that dog lie lol.

This is happening to me too! Also, the swarf clogged the surface and brown spots are all ready growing. Not a problem--going to soak in Simple Green for a while to clean it.

As for the glazing from the coti slurry: one side I will have lapped at 80 sic for really coarse work, the other probably around 320/500 for bevel work. The coticule slurry on that softie was amazing, but I can allready tell frequent cleaning/re-finishin the stone will come into play.

PHIGS are harsh? Bummer. I just bought one on ebay. I'm excited to see where it goes...