Thread: Tsushima "Ocean Blue" 12K

gcbryan - can you get a more focused picture of your stone? I'd like to see what that stripe down the center looks like, but that photo is pretty fuzzy. Looks suspiciously like the copper colored inclusion that resides in my PHIG. As do the little black stripes found in eKretz's stone. But mine is a lighter grey than either of those 2 rocks, and I don't think it has the sparkly white bits either.

The seller I was looking at is in Mango, Fl.

Originally Posted by Marshal

gcbryan - can you get a more focused picture of your stone? I'd like to see what that stripe down the center looks like, but that photo is pretty fuzzy. Looks suspiciously like the copper colored inclusion that resides in my PHIG. As do the little black stripes found in eKretz's stone. But mine is a lighter grey than either of those 2 rocks, and I don't think it has the sparkly white bits either.

The seller I was looking at is in Mango, Fl.

My camera is auto focus so this is the best I can do. This looks nothing like my Cnat however.

I curious as to why everyone is so critical of a new stone that does finish a blade smoothly. Everyone loves Coticules but as a finisher many of them do no more than this one or a Cnat.

I understand that they can be a one stone solution for some but we are talking about finishers here. I paid $35 for this small one.

Well, I can't speak for everyone. But I'm sure a lot of us have a bum stone somewhere. I've read about more failed Cnats than most other stones. Coticules...I will say surprised me. I was expecting a bit more from it than what my stone can give. I guess you could say from my perspective it doesn't live up to the hype. And I'm not about to bounce from dealer to dealer and stone to stone searching for that one that will live up to the hype.

I've also seen misrepresented C12K hones up for sale on The Bay for nearly 10x what it should be going for. Buying a natural sight unseen without even the benefit of running a pocket knife across the surface dry is already a gamble enough without the middleman making astounding claims to peddle his wares. Even ZY took to calling their razor stones Guangxi hones - possibly to capitalize on the popularity of the C12K we see everywhere - and it's clearly not the same rock. A little healthy skepticism is a good thing IMO.

And this isn't taking into account things like the ILR fiasco, and people still feeling miffed that AJ calls his purple slate a Llyn Melynllyn because it's from a nearby quarry and not the tiny and long closed mine right by the lake of same name where they produced Salmen's Yellow Lake Oilstones...the list goes on. In this case it doubles down because it's supposed to be a Jnat. Tough crowd that one.

That picture is much better though. I was afraid it was the same coppery inclusions seen here:



And if it were, in concert with eKretz's stone, would lead me to think Cnat with gold stamp. But the inclusions aren't the same. Yours seems to have that same slate grey coloring, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things because a LOT of rocks have that slate grey coloring. And eKretz's seems quite a bit darker than any Cnat I've seen photos of.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Did a quick hone tonight, test shave will have to wait until tomorrow. Here are a couple quick scope shots, first is a Jnat Asagi, second is the Ocean Blue. I took the Ocean Blue to 8k synth first, then to a light tomo slurry and after 40 laps or so, lightly diluted that until it was quite watery but slurry was still visible and did another 10 laps. HHT is good, HHT4 I'd say. I will be doing quite a bit more playing with progression on this stone.

...

I'm not yet certain whether it actually did much to the 8k edge - before the TOB hone the razor looked very similar to after except without the anomalous deeper scratches.

I just sold my black Tsushima Nagura because it was so slow I wanted to take the razor to my wrist.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well, I can't speak for everyone. But I'm sure a lot of us have a bum stone somewhere. I've read about more failed Cnats than most other stones. Coticules...I will say surprised me. I was expecting a bit more from it than what my stone can give. I guess you could say from my perspective it doesn't live up to the hype. And I'm not about to bounce from dealer to dealer and stone to stone searching for that one that will live up to the hype.

I've also seen misrepresented C12K hones up for sale on The Bay for nearly 10x what it should be going for. Buying a natural sight unseen without even the benefit of running a pocket knife across the surface dry is already a gamble enough without the middleman making astounding claims to peddle his wares. Even ZY took to calling their razor stones Guangxi hones - possibly to capitalize on the popularity of the C12K we see everywhere - and it's clearly not the same rock. A little healthy skepticism is a good thing IMO.

And this isn't taking into account things like the ILR fiasco, and people still feeling miffed that AJ calls his purple slate a Llyn Melynllyn because it's from a nearby quarry and not the tiny and long closed mine right by the lake of same name where they produced Salmen's Yellow Lake Oilstones...the list goes on. In this case it doubles down because it's supposed to be a Jnat. Tough crowd that one.

That picture is much better though. I was afraid it was the same coppery inclusions seen here:



And if it were, in concert with eKretz's stone, would lead me to think Cnat with gold stamp. But the inclusions aren't the same. Yours seems to have that same slate grey coloring, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things because a LOT of rocks have that slate grey coloring. And eKretz's seems quite a bit darker than any Cnat I've seen photos of.

If you look back a few posts you can see my picture with the Ocean Blue and the Cnat side by side. The coloration is very different.

I haven't actually heard of a lot of people who don't get smooth and reasonable sharp edges from the Cnat as well.

I think when people own a lot of expensive stones that they sometimes aren't all that objective with Cnats and stones like this. People will say that's not a 12k and will then say you should buy a Coticule. Why? That's not a 12k either. Mostly it's not sharper or smoother than the Cnat.

Many people seem to get good results from AJ's stones. Most like the middle stone (in his pictures) and some say the one on the right actually is sharper.

Other's say it's a door stop. That's usually a comment from those who have spent thousands on every hone in the world. It's just not objective is my point.

There is too much confusing the zen of honing with the results of a particular hone. There's only so much you can do to the thin foil edge of a razor IMO.

I'm also not that concerned with the names. Most sells are saying that there stones are similar to a name that everyone has heard of.

I don't think the ad for the Ocean Blue says it is a Jnat (what would that even mean). It is a natural stone and it is from Japan.

I'm prone to agree, to a degree. Most of the stones I like, oddly enough, can be had for 30 bucks or less. The ones I'm iffy on, my coticule and ZY Cnat, are the most expensive and cheapest stones I own respectively. Funny how that works out eh?

And to a degree I can understand the sentiment. I like my Cnat. Thoroughly enjoy my Welsh Slates. But I love my Arkansas stones. I have 5 that are capable of finishing a razor with a sixth on the way. So in a way I get where the coticule/escher/Thuringian/Jnat guys are coming from. Sometimes I wonder if it's not a case of simply finding a way to get the results we want with the stones that we like. Because the results I get off my Purple and Black Welsh slates and off my various Arkansas stones aren't too far removed from one another. My Cnat is right behind them, not quite as good but damn close.

Interestingly enough, the results I get seems to match how I feel about the rock. The question is does my affection for the stones drive the results, or do the results drive my affection for the stones?

I'm starting to think it's how much you like the stone that determines the results. There are a lot of finishers out there and they all seem to work pretty well. No one is satisfied with any of them and they keep chasing a better edge but all they end up with is another hone.

I don't think there is anything too special that you can do to an edge. Most of the skill is in the actual shaving I think.

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I don't know about all that. I've collected quite a number of natural stones now of all types, and there are definite standouts IMO. Most stones that are used as finishers can do a pretty good job at shaving WTG, but ATG is the arbiter for me, and there are definite differences there, especially in shave comfort.

For me, getting new stones is actually more about collecting them and trying them rather than chasing a better edge. If all I wanted was a great shave I would never have gotten another stone and would still be using my very first first finisher I started with over 12 years ago - an old surgical black Ark that was my Dad's. I actually enjoy honing and using my stones, it's relaxing to me. I like comparing the differences in speed and bevel appearance just as much as shaving with the edges.

Another area where there are discernible differences is in the closeness of the shave. This can be measured by the length of time no stubble can be felt ATG. Some stones produce edges that consistently shave closer than others. (BBS lasts longer).

The actual process of shaving does definitely play a role in how well one can use a non-optimal edge though. A bit of a harsh edge can be made to shave pretty well with the use of proper angles and a little scything/sideways motion - but if you don't know what you're doing there will be blood, heh. Good shaving skills also help prolong the edge life.

Originally Posted by RayClem

The two Tsushima stones with which people are most familiar are the Tsushima ocean black and the Tsushima mountain stone. Everything I have read about these two stones says that they are mid-range stones, not finishers. The "ocean blue" may have come from a different strata in the same mine from which the "ocean black" came. Thus, it has different characteristics.

I do not have a known JNAT with which to compare the "ocean blue" stone. Even if I had one, I would not expect the "ocean blue" to have similar characteristics.

It is my understanding that many of the traditional JNAT stones come from the Nakayama region. That is in a region of Japan that is about 100 miles from the ocean. Tsushima is an island about 1500 miles southeast of Nakayama. The stones are supposedly quarried from an underwater mine. Why would anyone expect a Tsushuma stone to have the same characteristics as a Nakayama stone quarried 1500 miles away. Each stone has to stand on its own merits.

I wanted to say something regarding this but forgot earlier. The well known black "Ocean" Tsushima stone leaves the same familiar scratch pattern as other finish grade JNats I've tested, albeit slightly coarser. These fine JNats are very distinctive in that they create a series of very short scratches/pits due to the rolling/sliding/scooping action of the slurry particles that produce that distinctive "frosted mirror" look. I have never tested the Mountain version but I'd be willing to bet it's the same. This stone would have to be supposedly mined right next door to where the black Tsushima is mined. That's why this TOB stone makes me think it may be something else. It also may very well be mined there, I am just very suspicious due to the characteristics.