Thread: Question About Being "Done" on an Arkie

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Marshal-You were one of the enablers who got me all hyped up about burnishing my natural finishers in that thread around Christmas as I recall. I did my translucent and my PHIG-didn't hone enough then to draw any conclusions. I've got a lot more time to play around this summer-we'll see.

Hehe...I'm still not %100 sure if it actually did what I wanted it to do, or if my mind is playing tricks on me to justify all the elbow grease I put into flattening, polishing, polishing some more, then finally burnishing almost every natural stone in my inventory. But to my eye, and the feel on my face, they all seem to polish just a tic better than they ever had before. Jury's still out though. They all got a layer of CrOx that I buffed into em really good, and wiped down with mineral spirits to clean off the excess. But for all I know that little extra tic of keenness/polish could just be leftover CrOx the mineral spirits couldn't break up and pull off the stone. I have doubts though, it was the cheap WoodCraft CrOx they explicitly warn us razor users not to use for our blades.

Marshal, if you feel it is better than IT IS BETTER. Subjective or not! If the placebo effect works then bring it on. That's my feeling on the matter anyway.

A quick update: after a few more 15 minute sessions on oil, in which I refined both the edges and my technique, both of those harsh-feeling full hollows now give a close, very smooth shave with a very light touch. Interesting edge development-they now feel very sharp, brisk, precise (searching for the right adjectives here) but also smooth. And yes, as others have reported, they don't seem to want to cut skin.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying getting to know how far I can go with this stone, and actually enjoy my now daily sessions with it, so it doesn't feel like extra work to me.

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Okay, so I started on the Surgical Black mentioned in my other thread with two I had in my stable that were at least nominally shave-ready, but both full-hollows that can be kind of "scrapy" on my face. One is a Torrey, and the other is a George Butler "Shakespeare" razor.

I don't really count strokes any more, especially on naturals, but spent about 15 minutes on each razor on the prepped SB on water with a drop of dish soap, using a combination of back and forths, circles and x-strokes with moderate torque on the edge. Pretty quickly I started getting that "sticky" feeling with some squeak and a feeling that the blade wanted to dig in, almost exactly like the final strokes on a hard JNAT. I then lightened up and continued, refreshing the water and soap as needed to keep things gliding along, and it kept coming back on both blades, so I figured I'd finish with some ultra-light passes and quit while I was ahead (operating under the assumption that any real digging in of a blade into an ultra-hard ark surface would be disastrous!). I sealed the deal with 40 linen and 60 leather stropping strokes, and both passed the HHT all along a near-mirror bevel.

Do you Arkie experts get that stickiness, and is it a reliable measure of being done as on some other naturals? I don't recall getting this much on my 4x2 translucent (maybe because less of the blade is in contact with the hone at any given time?).

Another thing: although conventional wisdom from my extensive reading holds that arkies need hundreds of strokes and a lot of time to work their magic, I have read some others say that because of the unique nature of the stone, more pressure can be used than on, say, a Coti or other finishers, thus speeding things up considerably. This is what I was trying to achieve, and both edges "seem" to confirm that it worked. I'm also considering switching to oil in the theory that the extra cushion might allow for a hair more pressure, as I've seen on a couple of arkie honing videos.

For now, these are all just theories. I'd love some input into them from you experienced users re technique and being "done."

As I shaved this morning, I'll need to sprout some hair again before doing the real test.

Thanks in advance-Aaron

They will still feel slick when finishing, unless you're using a lubricant that doesn't make them so. Keep honing razors and your experience will tell you when the razor is ready. In my experience, an arkansas finisher is better used with some pressure for initial strokes, and gradually lighter pressure.

I have been using arks for a long time, before they were said to be OK on razor forums, and still find better experience with oil or a water based oil substitute than dish soap. The stones need something oil-like to float particles out.

I've also found that technique on the stones (X's, back and forth, circles, whatever you want to do) to be almost inconsequential. Just get the razor up to a polish and the stone will just about stop cutting. Ark and washita do that - they remove grooves with a little bit of speed and then nearly stop.

Last comment - arkanasas stones love stropping - I think due to shallow grooves or nearly no grooves, the foil is longer and thinner and less broken. A vintage linen and a good smooth leather will reward you with an excellent edge.

I have become a daily shaver only buying few razors and using only one or two of them. I know it's fun to hone, but I only do it about once every 200 shaves (either with an idwall or a dan's black ark - if you closed your eyes, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in the hone or the shave if the idwall is a good one). A good linen and a smooth hard broken in leather will make it so that you have to hone very little. Eventually, you want to preserve the last tiny slice of edge that's on the razor and not hone it all the way off - if you have a good linen and leather. The edge will remain smoother and sharper - no bite - the stone keeps the geometry of the bevel in check rather than creating the edge each time.

“I have doubts though, it was the cheap WoodCraft CrOx they explicitly warn us razor users not to use for our blades.”

Well, that is what “those” compounds are designed for, polishing.

They contain abrasives, that cut and polish hard materials, but when used on a razor edge, they leave a rough/harsh edge. The grit is unknown as to what it is and the grit size.

Try some good metal polish for even a higher polish on the stone, it can be used as a “slurry” to burnish and buff on a wheel after.

I have stropped on metal polish, and it will remove all visible stria. Simply joint the edge straight, then add a layer of tape and lay on a micro bevel with a few laps.

It is also a great way to experiment, and lay a new stria pattern on a flat, meeting bevel with no stria for comparing stone finish.

Are we talking about the "microfine" honing stick? That's the one that all of the controversy has been about for ten years or so, but the biggest issue with it isn't the aluminum oxide in it, it's the fact that it's wax and there's no great reason to have heavy wax on a strop.

Every time I've ever used that compound on tools, it has improved the edges from all of the synthetic stones I've tried (never tried the gok with tools, it's a waste of time, but I did use a shapton 15k pro and a SP 13k for a little while, and the microfine compound on MDF led to a finer edge - cleaner paring). It did lead to a little bit of spiderwebbing on the backs of tools (due to stray particles), but it would do the same thing on a razor (and did for me) - spider web the bevel a little bit, but it certainly didn't contribute to a rough edge in my experience. Clumps of it could, though.

If someone has a dull feeling edge after using the microfine sticks, or the veritas compound (as some people call it), I doubt it's usually that stick.

Yup, polishing compounds and metal polish works great on tools, and knives, especially wood working tools, where a micro serrated edge helps cutting wood fibers. I too have tried or still use most of the Micro Fine compounds on the market.

But on a razor edge, it leaves a harsh edge, especially if pressure is used with a hard substrate. I too use a MDF strop for wood working tools with polishing compounds.

A lot of the complaints a few years ago, were at the height of the Balsa wood strop craze, and with balsa, I do agree pressure and possibly inherent grit in the wood contributed to the harsh edge.

But it’s not like it will “ruin” a razor, some light finish honing can straighten a razor edge right up, easily. Try the Jantz Pink Scratchless for a keen wood working or knife edge on MDF or a cardboard strop.

Probably some combo of Ferrous Oxide and Aluminum, whatever it is, it leaves a smoking buffer finish, on a razor after Green Stainless compound. It also works very well on scales, Plastic, Celluloid, and Horn.

What I'm saying is that I've never had a problem with the microfine compound and a razor. I'm no longer a compound junkie for anything, and find autosol more appropriate for woodworking (it's quite coarse - 3 micron or so).

But I never had an issue with the razor on the microfine compound. I think this is the case of a lot of indians blaming the arrow when the arrow is probably fine.

I have some razors coming. I will make it a point to try the microfine compound again. Certainly there is the issue of the bevel angle on tools being 10 degrees different (a shapton can microfracture a razor, but won't do it to tools), but I'm curious as to whether the mf compound became an issue after someone didn't like spider webbing, or because someone didn't like the shave that it provided.

I'll take a couple of pictures of the edges, too, vs. regular chrome ox. I'm assuming that I'll find a couple of tiny chips from stray particles as well as some random scratches, but an edge overall that's at least as good as natural stones that people rave about (in terms of uniformity).

Cutting the wax with a little bit of oil has always solved my issues with any buffing sticks, except for the ones that have truly coarse abrasive in them.

I'm sure that the al-ox is in the microfine sticks because people would complain about it being too slow if it was crox only (for tools, not for razors). This is a big debate over on some woodworking forums because there is a reviewer who does a lot of reviews for Lee Valley in exchange for tools, and people are always looking to burn him because they don't like it if he finds anything positive about something he's gotten. The al-ox laden abrasives are a lot more practical for woodworking than is pure crox, but it doesn't stop haters from chasing certain people around. Even though they improve an edge that comes off of a stone (often needlessly improving an edge that will get blasted off in less than a dovetail or three passes of a plane).

I am now in a different crowd than most, rarely obtaining razors (as opposed to someone who hones for pay, or someone flipping razors), and I like to preserve the very razor edge from linen and leather and keep the bevel in check rather than honing the whole thing off and going with an abrasive to clean up the stria from the last stone. I always considered the edges from all of the powders to be a bit rough unless they were stropped - even .09 micron iron oxide leaves a brash edge. I still have a green croxed strop that has only seen graded powder, and will use it as that, clean it off and then try the stick. Since I'm not selling services or razors, I'm not afraid of the cosmetic issue (which would be an issue if I were honing a razor for someone, just as people paying for professional hand-sharpening on expensive knives expect the edges to be both serviceable and cosmetically perfect - as they should).

Well, I wasn't saying that the green wax compound degraded the edge. Far from it. It was just a harsh/biting edge that I disliked shaving with. Far sharper than the Norton 8K, but not as comfortable as the green CrOx spray that I picked up from SRD. And that's kind of immaterial because with a few shaves and passes on just linen and leather the razor came out smooth as you'd please. As you said above Dave, a bit of good stropping with linen and leather does wonders to make a comfortable edge.

I'd still steer people toward the SRD spray, Maggard's, or a graded paste intended for stropping razors over the Micro-Fine wax stick, but that isn't me implying that it degrades an edge. Just that other options are more comfortable out the gate without having to spend 3 to 5 shaves letting an edge 'break in' so to speak.

But, my point in the post above was that I doubt there's any residual paste left on the hone because I don't get that same harsh biting edge, even after the several hundred laps I ordinarily end up doing on those stones to finish an edge. Just feels like a well broken in Arkie.

As for my own stropping, the vast majority of it is done on linen and leather. SRD's premium fabric specifically in the case of the linen, maybe some day I'll find some vintage material to pair with the buffalo hide. I have a few strops pasted with SRD .5 CrOx, some of Ken's .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx but that's all used on one razor as kind of an experiment. By and large I'm finding myself on the same page, the edges are serviceable sure but too brash for my taste.

I'm slowly approaching that phase where the experiments are slowing down and most of my blades are in maintenance mode. Linen and leather until the stones are needed. Which I suppose is a good sign, even if it is a little boring.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well, I wasn't saying that the green wax compound degraded the edge. Far from it. It was just a harsh/biting edge that I disliked shaving with. Far sharper than the Norton 8K, but not as comfortable as the green CrOx spray that I picked up from SRD. And that's kind of immaterial because with a few shaves and passes on just linen and leather the razor came out smooth as you'd please. As you said above Dave, a bit of good stropping with linen and leather does wonders to make a comfortable edge.

I'd still steer people toward the SRD spray, Maggard's, or a graded paste intended for stropping razors over the Micro-Fine wax stick, but that isn't me implying that it degrades an edge. Just that other options are more comfortable out the gate without having to spend 3 to 5 shaves letting an edge 'break in' so to speak.

But, my point in the post above was that I doubt there's any residual paste left on the hone because I don't get that same harsh biting edge, even after the several hundred laps I ordinarily end up doing on those stones to finish an edge. Just feels like a well broken in Arkie.

As for my own stropping, the vast majority of it is done on linen and leather. SRD's premium fabric specifically in the case of the linen, maybe some day I'll find some vintage material to pair with the buffalo hide. I have a few strops pasted with SRD .5 CrOx, some of Ken's .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx but that's all used on one razor as kind of an experiment. By and large I'm finding myself on the same page, the edges are serviceable sure but too brash for my taste.

I'm slowly approaching that phase where the experiments are slowing down and most of my blades are in maintenance mode. Linen and leather until the stones are needed. Which I suppose is a good sign, even if it is a little boring.

Thanks for the clarification, Marshal. I wasn't singling you out, I just haven't been on here in a while. I remember the first go-around with the green stuff a long time ago when someone got the MSDS for the stuff after (can't remember the reason, maybe it was spiderwebbing?) many folks had used the sticks for a long time with good results (something that I think would still happen if it was necessary, but in the age of actual graded pigments with no wax in them, it's not -the pigments are so cheap that I've got bags that I never finished using and have divvied off bits of each bag to send to people who want to experiment with them). Almost overnight, folks who had been happy with the green stuff suddenly weren't because they read they shouldn't be. It spread to the woodworking boards, which is actually how I got introduced to SRP.

I agree about it making a brash edge, though, but brash because it's sharp, and not because it's full of damage like you'd get if you used a contaminated strop. I think they just didn't have that tight of control over the abrasive in the wax stick, and the result is a large particle here or there. There have been plenty of follow-on questions on the woodworking boards about "why don't I get a mirror polish?" when there is tiny spider webbing, and that goes down strange avenues, too, because the green microfine edge is far finer than is needed in woodworking - which itself does damage to the edges very quickly.

I find the preserved edge more regular/consistent and durable. The blinding edge that comes off of iron oxide is interesting, but very transient, and you become an addict of going back to the iron oxide, which means it needs to be kept dead clean (the strop, etc) and it starts to eat time that could be used elsewhere. And it doesn't have that ability that a linen edge has to get you as close as you want without being harsh.

Glad to hear you're using the arks and liking them, by the way. I think it's closer to what people did 100 years ago when they were just trying to get a good shave and the only bombarding they got was advertisements from time to time.