Thread: Fake hones, how common are they?

Oh man. Sorry to hear that bad story

Originally Posted by malaverdiere

Oh man. Sorry to hear that bad story

No worries. These things happen. Honestly it could have been a Muuuch more expensive mistake.

I just wanted to feel out how common this sort of thing was. Judging by the feedback, it's not too common. This may have just been more opportunistic. i.e. someone had an escher box and wanted to make a few bucks...
Makes sense though, if this was very common i would imagine there'd be far more threads out there on this topic. I'll probably stick with buying from people i know and people on these forums. there's certainly no lack of stone variety among us!

Dave, in your opinion, are the current crop of retailers of jnats selling stones with fake stamps or are they being had as well. I mean your asking for trouble buying a Nakayama Maruka on ebay, some say priceline is somewhat of an indicator as to the genuine or otherwise nature of that stone. From my limited experience in jnats, I would doubt that the respected retailers would knowingly pass on a dud, as one false labelled/stamped stone would be the end of their reputation. Also, I'm sure if someone sold you a dud Maruka you'd pick it in an instant, so who are these people who peddle falsely stamped stones.

Originally Posted by bobski

Dave, in your opinion, are the current crop of retailers of jnats selling stones with fake stamps or are they being had as well. I mean your asking for trouble buying a Nakayama Maruka on ebay, some say priceline is somewhat of an indicator as to the genuine or otherwise nature of that stone. From my limited experience in jnats, I would doubt that the respected retailers would knowingly pass on a dud, as one false labelled/stamped stone would be the end of their reputation. Also, I'm sure if someone sold you a dud Maruka you'd pick it in an instant, so who are these people who peddle falsely stamped stones.

Very likely. All those nice fresh perfect looking purple stamps were applied before the stone was shipped to the retailer, or even in the storehouse right after the boxes were unpacked. The people that fake stamp are looking for profits and count on gullible people to pay for those stones.

Who is to tell if stones sold by retailers are Nakayama or not? I doubt there are many left in Japan who can tell the difference, the old generation of miners is about gone, and the stock has changed hands at least once already, no one would label the raw rocks with mines of origin so sellers slap whatever stamps they feel like. Nakayama being the most obvious choice for financial reasons.
Since Kato San passed away and no one has inherited the rights to the Maruka and Hatanaka stamps, it is free for all and very risky to buy new stock stones with those stamps. Barber estate sales is where the good authentic stuff is.

As a lay person I have to draw a line in the sand and trust the vendor's integrity and his product knowledge so he would be in a good place to detect a dud or fake. The Shobu Asagi Tamamoku I bought from Takeshi is my favourite stone of the four I have. Easily the best shaving edge I've been able to get from the naturals. It is a genuine competitor to high grit synthetic stones , given some mellowing on a pasted strop and you have the feel of this Shobu edge. That is high praise for any stone, and I admit to taking two razors to the bathroom when testshaving the Shobu edge, the spare was in case the Shobu edge wasn't up to it, and it was tops. I did a full three pass shave and it was easy going, I was amazed. So, if I wanted to outlay some big dollars and buy a Nakayama maruichi Maruka or similar, it seems a dangerous prospect, and really at my stage if progress on jnats, I probably wouldn't get the best out of such a stone although I'd like to try a fast cutter, that's not to say my Shobu is slow, it's steady. This is a real learn these jnats.

I agree with what Stephan says (and he knows more about this stuff than I do and has a longer history with it). it's not that easy to tell who is really a dealer with a wholesaler (for example, some dealers use imanishi and just depend on what he gives them - I believe takeshi aoki is in that group), some who go over there and raid old/stock stores of stones and only take the ones they like (alex gilmore - and I mean raid in a good way, get the good stuff out of there sort of thing), and then there are people who are just buying stuff at random and hopefully not stamping it.

IIRC, Alex and others mentioned on here a couple of years ago that the dealers in japan had decided that it was fine to stamp unstamped stones (the connotation wasn't that they were going to be devious, but that some high grade stones were never stamped).

At the outset of that, i saw some nice green uniform stones that had really bright fresh stamps all over them, and got PMs from people who had $500 stones that were "really worth $3,500 according to the guy who sold it to me". Some were not that nice, too, I guess, with voids all over the place and cracks, but perhaps the characteristic of the abrasive was nice enough that someone wanted to stamp them.

The value of some genuine stamps that weren't on perfect stones will probably be hurt by all of this, but the truly rare stones with excellent boxes won't be hurt (boxes not necessary for the superb, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt value to have them). I've seen some really nice stones sell recently for prices I wouldn't have given even if they were stamped (on japanese sites), so the really good stones will always have value.

Of the gray market peddlers, I'd bet more of them than not know that they're selling fake stones. I still like to use that term even though it's apparently acceptable. The folks like Alex who have talked about this have been much more forthright about it, and if you look at the stones of some of the dealers who have been around for a while, many of them are still unstamped. You pay for Alex's expertise, not for a fake stamp.

Over on the watch forums when it comes to used and vintage pieces we say "buy the seller not the watch". That should be even double true for stones unless you are a real expert.

I guess this would be a good time to say my Naniwa 12 k Superstone is not fake, so maybe synthetics are the way to go! Tc

Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I guess this would be a good time to say my Naniwa 12 k Superstone is not fake, so maybe synthetics are the way to go! Tc

Certainly safer if you want 100% chance of getting the genuine article.

I get better results with natural stones than I did with synthetics, at least from the stand point of getting a predictable edge with no strange damage. But I think that varies from person to person - I guess....or.....so I hear.

My most recent purchase jnat wise, came From Aframestokyo, and it was a stamped Shobu Asagi Karasu Tamamoku, 1.1kg, bench sized. I am very confident as to its providence, and from just the stones performance, forgetting it's a jnat, or any natural. The stone is brilliant to hone on, the fact it was sold with the fancy title and Shobu stamp is superfluous. If the shave wasn't excellent then you might look for a nefarious seller and suspicious stamp. I only say this because in actuality the three or four truly respected resellers of jnats are reliable, and in most instances, in fact the vast majority of stones fro retailers like Takeshi Aoki are the real deal.
Would you agree with that Dave? I don't want newcomers to be so concerned as to the stones genuineness that they'd not have a look. I know I am very pleased I did get into the jnats.