Thread: Two Shapton 8000 Glass Options?

First off, even though some folk would like to see more options in new stones, my personal belief is that the bevels set with Nortons, Shaptons and others leave nothing to be desired or for anyone to complain about. Due to the regularity and quality of the particles, if the honer is capable, are leaving edges sharper than anytime in history.
I had an interesting conversation with Harrelson Stanley, who many of you may know already(A big time Shapton Dude for those who don't) and he gave me some information on the glass stones I was unaware of. In our conversation, I told him my some concers I had with the 16000 glass stone, and how while it was great on some A2 steels, I thought it was leaving intermitant deep scratches on razors for it's grit.( I also asked him if I won a 30000 for any reason and just got really quiet) I did not ask him because it functionally was not up to task, but that it did leave stray scratches on the bevel, and I did not believe IMHO that it was cause my abilities getting it to it's potential. Here is what he basically told me(after I had once again asked him if he was sure I did not win the 30000) Harrelson said that the 16000 was not recommended for razors as it was indeed designed for modern steels e.g. A2 and others. That the 16000 was too aggressive for the old carbon steels but the progression should leave out the 16000 all together, even if honing up to 30000. He recommended the Japanese version (glass not pro series, nothing to do with pro series at all) of the 8000 was softer and that was a much better option for razors specifically.
He told me that this was a greyish stone not white, and a softer version of it's American cousin and much gentler. That the scratch pattern more shallow, and you can judge for yourself on that as I will try to leave the link to the PDF from the Japanese Shapton Website. Just click on the first topic the whole thing is in Japanese but it's got some electron micro pics that you can make sense out of. And notice there are 2 different 8000 grits on there and by part # you can figure out which one is which.
Remember once you get on their website, you have to click on the first topic, you will know if you got the right one cause it will be a PDF download. To see it better, you will have to pump up the size or you will suffer eye strain. He said the 8000 made for the razors(Japanese grey colored version, leaves a scratch depth mch lower. He almost went as far as to say the this 8000 version works better in terms of scratch depth than the 16000. i.e the Japanese 8000 leaves a finer finish on razors than their 16000.
How far after the 8000 anyone wants to go is all up to style and taste and ability. What did make sense finaly, was why on some literature I read on dealing with Shaptons, that the 16000 was for sure not recommended for razors. Sorry if you all knew about this already, but I di not find it in search.
Michael
(remember after website top of page 1rst topic PDF download)

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The Hap said he was working on a translation. I did not realize he sold the Jp version.

I am a high carbon guy. 8000 pro for hardwood is really all I need.

I could disagree with your soap, it is too eurocentric.

Consider the complexity of Chinese furniture, or the carving details of Japanese architecture, not to mention the pristine surfaces executed in softwood, which is a sort of proof for very fine edges.

Not to mention all the bald head monks

Originally Posted by kevint

The Hap said he was working on a translation. I did not realize he sold the Jp version.

I am a high carbon guy. 8000 pro for hardwood is really all I need.

I could disagree with your soap, it is too eurocentric.

Consider the complexity of Chinese furniture, or the carving details of Japanese architecture, not to mention the pristine surfaces executed in softwood, which is a sort of proof for very fine edges.

Not to mention all the bald head monks

I did not ask him if the pro had similarities to the Jp version. He told me he thought that he was the only one who carried it. I have 12000 pro got it long ago. surface has checked but still does a good job.
Some one could argue with your empirical proof for their edges. The monk's heads convinced me.
M

Pass the salt. When I talk to Harrelson on the phone I always keep in mind that he isn't a razor honer and that he has his own point of view on Shaptons. For instance I mentioned that I bought my 12k pro at Japan Woodworker an he got downright riled telling me that they were a gray market operation and they didn't guarantee the stones and I don't know what all. I called them and they have been grandfathered in having dealt with Shapton for thirty years and Harrelson being the USA distributor resents it.

He is a legend in honing plane irons and Japanese tools but he is simply not an authority on honing razors. Here is a thread reviewing my interpretation of his honing method based on the DVD of his razor honing. I think it was the third one he honed and when I talked with him shortly thereafter he told me that between business and family responsibilities he didn't have the time for the learning curve and wasn't going to pursue straight razor shaving or honing any further.

I talked with him some months ago and he told me he had the gray 8k in. He said it was designed for either blue or white steel I can't remember which as I am not that familiar with Japanese steels. At that time it wasn't on the website but he told me I could buy it as a package deal if I also bought a 500 and another grit..... may have been a 4 I can't recall those would have been the standard glass stones. He didn't mention that it would be particularly good for razors in our conversation IIRC.

This is part 2. I didn't want to make the first post too long. I have had a 16k glass briefly and I thought it was very good. I traded it because I already have the full set of Shapton Pros and with a 12k, and a 15k couldn't see the point in keeping it unless I was going for a full set of glass and I decided I was happy enough with the pros. Many members both honemiesters and honesters have had great performance on razors with the 16k.

Anyway, my take is that if you are going to polish all of the scratches from the previous grit completely off then maybe Harrelson's gray 8k may be the ticket. If you want to sharpen the razor to shave ready IMO polishing all the scratches out of the bevel up to 16 or 30k isn't necessary and I would argue isn't advisable.

For the bevel setting I could see polishing those out but when you get into 4/8 territory and the razor is sharp enough to shave you're there and polishing the bevel beyond that is optional and I would think could lead to overhoning for many. If someone knows their stuff and they want to look at the bevel under the microscope and see it sans scratches then rock on.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

This is part 2. I didn't want to make the first post too long. I have had a 16k glass briefly and I thought it was very good. I traded it because I already have the full set of Shapton Pros and with a 12k, and a 15k couldn't see the point in keeping it unless I was going for a full set of glass and I decided I was happy enough with the pros. Many members both honemiesters and honesters have had great performance on razors with the 16k.

Anyway, my take is that if you are going to polish all of the scratches from the previous grit completely off then maybe Harrelson's gray 8k may be the ticket. If you want to sharpen the razor to shave ready IMO polishing all the scratches out of the bevel up to 16 or 30k isn't necessary and I would argue isn't advisable.

For the bevel setting I could see polishing those out but when you get into 4/8 territory and the razor is sharp enough to shave you're there and polishing the bevel beyond that is optional and I would think could lead to overhoning for many. If someone knows their stuff and they want to look at the bevel under the microscope and see it sans scratches then rock on.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the 16000, but my point to him was what was the point of going that high and still having scratches left in the bevel. Jp still use some really cool trad carbon laminated steel in there hand tools the blue(a little harder more prone to chipping) and the white( IMHO a higher quality with academic difference in edge holding but does not chip as easy) These steels are old just like our razors. The point before I go off on rant raise about non razor tools and raise whiskers(never mind...) I thought for a moment that this hone might fit better in progression and use the 16000 for the gooeey A2 plane blades for a treat on those microbevels. (Don't even go there with Harrelson)
So long story short, i will let you know how it works.
M

T. Odate has an interesting page in his book on Jp. Tools dealing with micro-bevels.

nothing to do with razors.

Not all razors are made of old crucible Swedish sand. Early 20thc. efforts are likely some alloy, right? Tungsten and such. I'm not sure really. Then there are those highly abrasion resistant stainless things.

If it is too aggressive that would (or could) explain some of the complaints of harshness- which I think one might say is a case of microchipping not "too sharp"

Originally Posted by kevint

If it is too aggressive that would (or could) explain some of the complaints of harshness- which I think one might say is a case of microchipping not "too sharp"

I think you might be right on that Kevin. Not saying that the 16k is the issue but micro chipping will have a harsh feel on the skin.

I read this entire thread twice. I'm confused.

That's all.

Originally Posted by kevint

T. Odate has an interesting page in his book on Jp. Tools dealing with micro-bevels.

nothing to do with razors.

Not all razors are made of old crucible Swedish sand. Early 20thc. efforts are likely some alloy, right? Tungsten and such. I'm not sure really. Then there are those highly abrasion resistant stainless things.

If it is too aggressive that would (or could) explain some of the complaints of harshness- which I think one might say is a case of microchipping not "too sharp"

Interesting to see how masters like Odate find ways to plug into western markets DMT poducts an such..

Not my field but they were very traditional about them for long time. No doubt advances in purifying were just as important as the alloys. I have "modern" Engstrom with 1912 date still on the box, how ever they did, holds an edge like no other.

It would be hard to believe that the impact forces from particles that small would cause microchips, but when the bevel gets that close could be some of those scratches might be causing failure that way. Whatever, I'm over with using the 16000 on razors. I might do what jimmy does for now and get more time off the 12000 pro series. I have Chinese but even for the price it does not work for me.
Mike