The Aoto Thread

[Pyment]

here is the translation of one of 330mate's pages:

Google Translate

[kevint]

here is the translation of one of 330mate's pages:

Google Translate

went to Iyo stone. hey that iyo looks via color like shiden suita colors from fugibato... same place

[alx]

Kevin
I agree with you about not expecting too much at bargain prices.
This may seem obvious but most of the actual miners are old timers at it, following in family footsteps in a business that was always backbreaking and with little glory. No one knows the stones better then they do so when it comes to grading quality and pricing, I do not believe that many stones leave their hands at bargain prices or as mistakes. If stones are being sold through regular channels than the pricing will reflect the quality. Some of the dealers (not miners) selling over the internet from Japan are just middlemen who will buy wholesale at the lowest prices they can find so as to generate volume sales. This is fine and serves a purpose, but buyers should not expect top grade stones for low grade prices.

Factors in grading stones.
As a rule the stones that are on the open market in Japan are priced according to a formula taking into account these basic factors. One factor can trump another factor but only when it is an obvious advantage. In rank are:
1)Rarity (closed mine, unusual strata or color, including white)


2)Purity (the overall complexion of the stone, and evenness in color and texture from top to bottom, side to side and front to back. Any inclusions containing scratchy foreign particles are a negative ).

3)Size (larger stones are harder to find within the mining process, smaller stones are easier to find).

4)Grit particle size (always a finer stone will be more expensive)

5)Speed/Hardness (cutting speed is the balance of steel removal compared to hardness is the speed of the stones wear, a soft stone may cut faster but the stone wears out faster. For medium grit stones that cost less wear is not such an issue but speed is, but for expensive stones the speed should reflect the benefits of the stones lost material and be made up in the cost ratio category by the grit quality or one of the other factors. As an example: some softer Nakayama stones are so fine and even grained that this grit factor trumps the fact that they wear out or cup a bit faster. Conversely some really hard stones have enormous cutting power evident with the first stroke of a blade on the stone but are not easy to use on all steels.

Now granted the Iyo stones from Shikoku island near Mastsuyama City and some of the aoto stones from Kyushu are going to cost less by reputation but still the good to better grade stones even from those mines will always cost more as the quality goes up. Look what So-san is asking for his larger aoto toishi (not that much larger than what is being described here) $180- $230, and he does know his stones. You cannot expect to have the same dynamic and pleasurable sharpening experience with stones that sell so far below these base prices.

In Japan it is a known fact that the better stones are reserved for the better clients or long standing customers whether it be at the wholesale or retail level. The really great stones are not in the glass case up front in plain sight where just everybody can see them. These old fashion types of businesses in Japan are not so deeply based on just "only about money" attitudes, especially in and around the traditional crafts world. Money will not necesarily get you into the private restaurants, or will it buy you the best stones. Flashing money around is usually considered crude. It is more about who your parents were and how long you have been associated within the crowd or maybe because you have to be introduced by so and so. This same traditional mentality continues on down the quality line in lesser and lesser degrees until the bottom.

Also it must be understood that some of the stones that are sold on the internet are a sort of black market product, made up from raw discarded stones found as rubble (by trespassers) outside of some of these old mines in the tailings piles. These are cut into the shape of sharpening stones and sold with the implied assurances that they are from such and such a mine. These may appear to be desirable and some good stones may be mixed in, but they usually turn out to be very hard and unforgiving stones full of toxic inclusions that will scratch your blades and can never be tamed as friendly. This is why they were tossed away by the miners in the first place. But believe me, even these dealers know a good stone when they try it out and none are desperate enough to sell a top class stone for just a few dollars, they have other venues to sell the better grades in.
Alx
thejapanblade.com

[sparq]

Also it must be understood that some of the stones that are sold on the internet are a sort of black market product, made up from raw discarded stones found as rubble (by trespassers) outside of some of these old mines in the tailings piles. These are cut into the shape of sharpening stones and sold with the implied assurances that they are from such and such a mine. These may appear to be desirable and some good stones may be mixed in, but they usually turn out to be very hard and unforgiving stones full of toxic inclusions that will scratch your blades and can never be tamed as friendly. This is why they were tossed away by the miners in the first place. But believe me, even these dealers know a good stone when they try it out and none are desperate enough to sell a top class stone for just a few dollars, they have other venues to sell the better grades in.
Alx
thejapanblade.com

Alx,

Thank you for your comments. I think that you are spot on. I apologize if you feel that I drag the word "aoto" through mud here. Do I feel that my stone is a piece of rubble and performs as such? I do. I however try not to make any generalizations and hope that others will have better luck than me.

[kevint]

Hi Alx thanks for your reply. We know who nakaoka-san gets rocks from and he probably is a bit of a searcher as well -with his pics of old mines and diggings. So-san has worried about his Dad diving for black nagura. Sounds like a good way to spend a weekend to me

I learned a bit about the face aspects from some sword people. I am sure it is similar even to representives of other crafts and stones etc.

[JimR]

Hi Alx thanks for your reply. We know who nakaoka-san gets rocks from and he probably is a bit of a searcher as well -with his pics of old mines and diggings. So-san has worried about his Dad diving for black nagura. Sounds like a good way to spend a weekend to me

I learned a bit about the face aspects from some sword people. I am sure it is similar even to representives of other crafts and stones etc.

We do? Where? Who?

[kevint]

I know his descriptions are hard to follow but he lists it. The online shop was fugibato before 330mate he gets his stones form Mr. Yakmakan and previously perhaps currently from Hitomi-san

[Pyment]

All the stones I bought from him are now in the US according to tracking info. Hope to have them soon.

[joke1176]

I gave in and ordered one from Hida tool myself... the large one too.

I thought I had HAD whipped, but apparently not.

[sparq]

Any updates gentlemen? Am I the only party pooper in town?