Thread: Escher AFTER Coticule?

i honed a ti yesterday with coti dilucot. i did as sham recomends to use escher with slurry only (milky) i did 60 laps light as possible and then plain leather only for stropping.

the hht was not quite as good of the escher as it was of coticule. the shave this morning was very smooth and i was realy happy with the shave it was as smooth as you can get. Big improvemant this time. I'm just wondering if because my hone had never been used it may of just needed a good couple of lappings as i have done since i have had the stone. I will now try on some more razors . This was my best edge i have got of escher and the shave of slurry alone was faultless. now i'm getting some where i hope i can repeat this.

Originally Posted by Scipio

Im not anti coticule either, however I would not recommend it as a stone to start out with to someone learning to hone. Firstly a good sized one is quite expensive, more than a 4K/8K or a Nani 3/8K.

Second, while I have tried and tested Bart's methods, I think using coticules for bevel work and anything prior to polishing is like buying an expensive car that you have to push. Really. Coticules have their attributes and I admit are extremely versatile, but many dislike their final finish. Some members in this thread are happy with their shaves off a coti. Fair play, I respect that.

For those that want something more, a coti is pretty useless. You can bevel set with a 1k, refine on a 4/8 and finish on an Escher/Thurry/Jnat. Some large cotis can not much less than the cost of all these combined. And before even getting the finisher, a 1k and 4/8 is more than adequate, in fact recommeded to learn on prior to finishing with anything higher.

I started with a bout and it got me nowhere. I didn't know about SRP at the time and my initial failiures with the coti made me fear honing.
My point is they are expensive and far harder to use and without an experience honer at hand it is hard to learn to use cotis even with good advice, because the advice does not know the properties of the coti.

Sorry to go of on one.

Edit: You may like the idea of a single hone for all your needs, but it can not accomodate all your needs without you driving yourself mad for days trying to remove chips. You may one day come across a razor that needs some real edge correction, or a heavy wedge. You'll wish you had a lapping plate as the coti simply is not up to such a challenge.

Similarly one day you may want a better edge and buy a finisher that gives you better results. You may also buy a quicker synthetic hone as you're getting sick of spending hours setting bevels on your coti. Then you'll end up thinking why do I need this...?

Excellent points and a view I subscribe to. Granted, you can use a coti for most honing steps, but you can also use a teaspoon for digging-over the garden and do away with the need to buy a shovel... I'd use a shovel every time!

Also, like a few others here have pointed out whose opinions are valued, I have yet to find a coti whose edge can't be improved on by a good thuringian. Don't take that as coti-bashing, because it isn't, its just my personal experience with a number of hones.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by gary haywood

i honed a ti yesterday with coti dilucot. i did as sham recomends to use escher with slurry only (milky) i did 60 laps light as possible and then plain leather only for stropping.

the hht was not quite as good of the escher as it was of coticule. the shave this morning was very smooth and i was realy happy with the shave it was as smooth as you can get. Big improvemant this time. I'm just wondering if because my hone had never been used it may of just needed a good couple of lappings as i have done since i have had the stone. I will now try on some more razors . This was my best edge i have got of escher and the shave of slurry alone was faultless. now i'm getting some where i hope i can repeat this.

IMHO Escher is pretty easy to use, they seem to be very consistent with slurry. Coticule takes time to learn, and Jnats are even more temperamental.

Exactly. The coti is an incredible stone, and I have seen some true beauties, my favourites being natural combos with the black manganese dots and lines.

They are truly awesome stones and I can see the attraction to them.

But I can not stress enough to learners that this is the stone to avoid (IMHO IMHO IMHO etc, no one have a bash at me for this etc) as an initial choice.

The way I find them to be marketed, or more accurately the positive feedback by some experienced coti users MAY and I am sure HAS led some newbies to believe that this is all they will ever need. This couldn't be further from the truth. Even Bart uses a DMT. The more you hone, the more you wana get through the early steps more rapidly, ie. restore the edge quickly so you can get to polish. Sham says less strokes on more hones for example and I dont wish to waste time either. Bottom line is I dont know of one experienced member here who has one hone and nothing else - whether it be due to HAD or need for work horses.

I have seen posts (eg. 'Leos daddy learns to hone') whereby 'leo' was having trouble with a coti. I personally believe had he gone for a full set of nortons at a far cheaper price than that large combo (which he is now surprisingly selling) he would have had far more success and learned to hone far more quickly. But he had gone for a coti, quite possibly as he thought it was an indefinite solution to all the honing he would ever encounter.

Not only that, but for advice being given by meisters finds it hard to differentiate whether it is the hone or the user, whereas with a synthetic it is far more fool proof.

To me using an Escher/Thuringian after a Coticle is a natural progression, pardon the pun.

As a newbie honer, and the owner of a new Coticule, and a firm believer in the notion that a single Coti will be all I ever need (but not necessarily desire), I feel compelled to take a view and offer an opinion.

Understanding my position will benefit from a basic understanding of my shaving experience. I'm in my mid-40's and have been shaving with straights for a few years. I wear a beard, and am a generally disheveled grad student, so I shave a couple times a week, and only on my neck under my beard. Until the past month, I've used the same three razors, purchased new from Classic Shaving, not "honed and shave-ready by a honemeister." Until recently, I've used the same paddle strop, with Dovo Red Paste on one side, and untreated leather on the other. Eventually I noticed that my razors have dulled over the years, so I read SRP (and others), watched YouTube, and applied my own common sense and ability to separate opinion from fact to a decision to start honing my own razors.

Even a simple cost-benefit analysis of a hone purchase decision doesn't permit the acquisition of multiple stones to care for three razors. In fact, it barely allows for the purchase of a hone at all, so it became important to buy a single, high-quality versatile hone that would never need replacing. I have no wish to buy a starter stone and then deal with the cost of replacing it. Someone who's opinion I respect once told me get the right tool for the right job first, and then learn how to use it properly. So I bought a Coti, a good one from Steve at Invisible Edge (who's opinion I also respect.) It should serve me very well, as it has many others for a hundred years.

Perhaps it's appropriate to say that I now live in England (and desperately miss the weather in Colorado), and am confronted with antique dealers that seem to have endless supplies of old Sheffield razors. I've picked up several, and am learning to polish and restore them. I'm a rookie, heavily armed with a Coti, a Dremel, and the firm belief that I can accomplish a great deal with these two simple tools. It's also important to note that I've now spent more on razor care (strops, hone, Dremel, etc...) then I have on razors, a balance that I find borders on some sort of Disorder. So I have no desire to buy more hones, only more razors.

Given the time-honored tradition of using a Coti, coupled with its incredible versitilty and ability to produce fine edges, the decision to choose it as a single stone seems reasonable to me. Metal can be ground and polished forever, so mistakes are correctable as I learn to hone. Once I'm an expert on my Coti, it's possible that I may desire an additional finishing stone, but the key word here is "desire," not "need." According to everything I've read, when controlling for individual opinions, the Coti is all I'll ever need.

Manual Castells, the esteemed communications scholar at Oxford and USC, speaks of Networked Power, the condition under which an opinion is amplified in importance beyond, perhaps, what it should be when inserted into the network. No one's opinion is correct, no matter how loud or prominent it appears. It seems like we are all falling victim to this condition.

That's just my opinion.

Fair enough. I personally think you would have been better off with a 4/8 Norton, but if the bout is working for you thats excellent news.

Had you only wanted to maintain 3 razors, a barber hone may have been even more cost effective.

Well put Mark. For most people on SRP your approach, or one similar is all that is needed. Many of the people posting to this thread hone professional or at least hone many razors. It is at that point that they balance cost with time and search for a hone that produces a reliable edge and fine finish time and again. While I have a few more razors than needed I hone for myself and occasionally for others. I like a minimal approach to my hones, at least at first. I desire more hones but the desire is kept in check with the substantial savings in finding hones at local antique shops and flea markets as to paying 'retail' or highest bid. It is very easy to look at the honemisters and say that if they are using hone x it must be what I need or want while missing the value added part of the equation.

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

Given the time-honored tradition of using a Coti, coupled with its incredible versitilty and ability to produce fine edges, the decision to choose it as a single stone seems reasonable to me.

They are indeed time honored and that accounts for some of what attracts me to them. If you work with the stone long enough you'll get to know it and if the results are satisfactory you may stay with the coticule by itself. Nothing at all wrong with that. If, OTOH, you're in one of those antique stores and you run across a Charnley Forrest or an Escher grab it. More arrows in the quiver keeps the sport interesting.

Ceramic Cinders of course........bonded with the finest Corinthian Naturals........what were you guys tinkin'..........lmao!!!!



Lynn

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

We have to be a bit more specific here Jimmy! Are we talking about the hollow or the solid cinder blocks? do we know the strata that the cinders came from? Is there a makers name or stamp impressed in the block? Are there any glassy inclusions? Has the block been lapped?

Call me Joe Friday, but all I want are the facts....!