Thread: How to use Coticule.

So, take a razor fresh off your favorite bevel setter as the starting point for the test?

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I did answer to your question on b$b basically do this.
start to hone your razor usually way.
i would never use coticule to set bevel but if you like to do so or have tried dilucot method etc go head try this.
use water and start to hone. simple . you will have slurry formation approximately after 20-30 strokes(there is exceptions which is very high quality coticules out there wont form slurry according to holli4pirating).
then keep it going until you get the edge you like. in your last strokes clean up the stone and make 10 light strokes just with water. check the time how long this will take compare to dulicote method.gl

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

i would never use coticule to set bevel but if you like to do so or have tried dilucot method etc go head try this.

Ah ha!
Well, i wouldn't (normaly) use a coticule with just water to set a bevel either.... sheesh!

The entire purpose of using the dilucot method is to do exactly that.
That's why we al keep killing our edges on a glass.... to have a new bevel to set.

No one will argue the point that touching up a razor with a coticule and water is surely faster than setting a new bevel, slurry or no slurry.

Dilucot honing method - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

So, take a razor fresh off your favorite bevel setter as the starting point for the test?

lets say this way.
instead of you using dilucote method go head just start with water and don't clean up any slurry etc. keep it going until the edge you ware trying to get or usually get.
you will need to make last 10 strokes just water without any pressure.
after that check time how much did you spend and compare using dilucot see how much time you are spending.

........................

Originally Posted by wdwrx

Ah ha!
Well, i wouldn't (normaly) use a coticule with just water to set a bevel either.... sheesh!

The entire purpose of using the dilucot method is to do exactly that.
That's why we al keep killing our edges on a glass.... to have a new bevel to set.

No one will argue the point that touching up a razor with a coticule and water is surely faster than setting a new bevel, slurry or no slurry.

Chris
Now you are mixing up things.
did you try method how it should be ? without cleaning up slurry and just keep it going ?
As your first experiment wasn't correct one?
check the time how long took you to get there?
lastly have you ever tried check the edge after dulling on the glass bottle?
you are doing very minimal damage to the edge when you to this.

I think two points are being missed here.

First, and I know others disagree, there is no point in dulling a razor before sharpening it. Damaging/dulling your edge just doesn't make any sense to me. I know it's not a great analogy, but to me this makes as much sense as deliberately breaking your leg in preparation for training for a marathon. That is what Hi_Bud_Gl was saying about just honing it. Since it is not the main point of this thread, I'd rather not descend into a debate about pre-dulling.

Second, and this is the more critical point, is that except for extremely hard coticules, it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually hone with just water. The reason that a coticule is an amazing/unique hone is the relative ease that it releases slurry during honing. That is, you don't need to use a rubbing stone to create a slurry because the simple act of honing causes a constant release of slurry. You don't need to add to it with a rubbing stone but you also can't stop its production. You can only reduce it in the final polish by rinsing off the stone and doing final light strokes with just water.

Sham, I'm sorry, I've long since lost the ability to follow this train of reasoning.

As I understand it now, your intent is to show how to use the coti after the bevel being set on a different stone?

That defeats the purpose of using slurry on a coticule.
The slurry on a coticule is vital in providing enough abrasive action to set a bevel, but is detrimental to polishing the bevel. We can't have it both ways, and if you are using a different stone to do your bevel work, there is no need for slurry.
If you are using a different stone the whole argument becomes nonsensical; of course it would be faster to use no slurry, but there is no need for slurry.

Yes, a coticule without slurry will be faster on a razor ready to be polished.
Yes, a cotuicule with slurry will be slower on a razor ready to be polished, as one now needs to overcome the dulling effect caused by the slurry.

Sham, I did try the test... as I understood it.
I took two identical razors, dulled the edges (roughly to equal degrees), repaired the bevel on each with two different methods: Slurry diluted to clear water, and clear water alone.

The two results were in direct contradiction to your statement that slurry would take longer. The razor honed with slurry reached shaving sharpness within 12 minutes (aproximatly 200 strokes)
The razor honed with water alone is at aproximatley 800 strokes, and is still not as sharp as the other, and required more than 30 minutes.

According to my understanding of the dulicot method it was an attempt to prove that if all a person had was one coticule (with a slurry stone) they could use that one stone to set their bevel, sharpen and finish the razor to a shave ready condition.

I don't think the method was necessarily recommended as being the default for a honer to use on all of his razors on a regular basis. Bart used to post that he used a 1200 DMT to set his bevels and followed with the bbw/slurry and the coticule with water IIRC.

IME a bevel can be set with a coticule with heavy slurry but I prefer the quicker and more expedient synthetic 1 to 2k grit naniwa, shapton or norton. For the guy who by necessity or choice only has a coticule to work with the dulicot method can be utilized to provide a shave ready razor if the honer has the skill.

In the early stages of Bart's development of the dulicot method the question of whether a novice would know they were actually improving the edge as opposed to having an advantage from an edge already being somewhat 'there' came up. So the purpose of dulling the razor was to assure that the honer is starting with an edge that is uniformly dull. To avoid a novice honer thinking he was achieving a sharp edge when the razor was already sharp or nearly so.

There is no harm in a civil discourse and debate on the merits of one stone or method of honing over another. OTOH, going back to preferences, I tried everything I could to successfully sharpen/finish razors with the Spyderco set of medium, fine and ultra fine. I gave up and sold them.

I've read posts by honers who have had great success with theirs. So is the fault with the stones or with my ability with them ? If a stone and a method work for you but not for me far be it from me to criticize. Regardless of what we use and how we use it the edge will meet the whiskers and either deliver the goods or not. If the method/stone isn't working the user will move on to another combination until they find whatever works for them. Just IMHO.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

According to my understanding of the dulicot method it was an attempt to prove that if all a person had was one coticule (with a slurry stone) they could use that one stone to set their bevel, sharpen and finish the razor to a shave ready condition.

I don't think the method was necessarily recommended as being the default for a honer to use on all of his razors on a regular basis. Bart used to post that he used a 1200 DMT to set his bevels and followed with the bbw/slurry and the coticule with water IIRC.

IME a bevel can be set with a coticule with heavy slurry but I prefer the quicker and more expedient synthetic 1 to 2k grit naniwa, shapton or norton. For the guy who by necessity or choice only has a coticule to work with the dulicot method can be utilized to provide a shave ready razor if the honer has the skill.

In the early stages of Bart's development of the dulicot method the question of whether a novice would know they were actually improving the edge as opposed to having an advantage from an edge already being somewhat 'there' came up. So the purpose of dulling the razor was to assure that the honer is starting with an edge that is uniformly dull. To avoid a novice honer thinking he was achieving a sharp edge when the razor was already sharp or nearly so.

There is no harm in a civil discourse and debate on the merits of one stone or method of honing over another. OTOH, going back to preferences, I tried everything I could to successfully sharpen/finish razors with the Spyderco set of medium, fine and ultra fine. I gave up and sold them.

I've read posts by honers who have had great success with theirs. So is the fault with the stones or with my ability with them ? If a stone and a method work for you but not for me far be it from me to criticize. Regardless of what we use and how we use it the edge will meet the whiskers and either deliver the goods or not. If the method/stone isn't working the user will move on to another combination until they find whatever works for them. Just IMHO.

And a good point Jimmy, That's how it is. Everyone has what works for them, And that's it, isn't it, It works for them....We can relay this information out, and it's up for grabs, to try, You may not like it, it may not work for you, but it did for the user, and he wishes to share the info..