Thread: Estimating bbw/coticule grits

I was thinking the same thing Disturben. I've handled more Coticules than I care to mention. I was a vendor for Ardennes for a while. I don't think Coticules go anywhere near 12k. I mentioned in this thread I believe to the OP, that he could go to his 12k after a Coti. The Verbage on Ardennes is confusing at best. Here's how it was explained to me by Rob Celis at Ardennes.

Kosher Grade: No flaws, inclusions, through and through.
Selected Grade: No visable Inclusions on the surface.
Standard Grade: Visable Inclusions on the surface...

If you can scratch the surface easily with your fingernail and it leaves a nice mark in the stone, you have a soft cutter.
If you scratch the surface of the stone, and it leaves no mark at all, it's a hard finisher.
Inbetween, well, is inbetween. The more stones you handle, to more this test makes sense....

Now, the other day we were discussing how the Nortons that were made in different places, IE. US, Hong Kong, and wherever else they made them, made a difference in their performance, Now, i do realize they are synthetics, but, The difference was pock mocks. What i got out of that was that the pock mocked one's weren't as good as the clean surface ones. So, if that's the case, Wouldn't a nice, clean surface Coti perform better that a standard grade with pock mocks and inclusions....?

We always claim that standard perform as good, or better than Selected. but All my Coticules are Selected grade. I'm happy...

Eye Candy....Far right: Kosher grade Dresannte, Next to it, a pure pink let lat Combo...Vintage...You really have to see it to appreciate it...

Far left, Tiger stripped Dresannte, and you have La petite, La Grosse, La Vienette, etc..All the guys in there...These are just the 6x2's, I think...I may have missed one or two...I have 8x3's and Bouts. All are different cutters...

Maybe one day, I'll thin out the heard and sell some off, but I've grown attached to them....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

With what you have so far, if I were in your shoes I would make my next finisher a Naniwa 12k, that hone plays well with your Norton 8k and is a Synthetic so it should give you an idea of how they work as a finisher too since you are already using a natural stone with the PHIG... That gives you two different directions to branch out to off the Norton...

JMHO but that is what you asked for

What he said.

My Nani 12k finishes as sharp and smooth as my any of my cotis and or Thurris. Never would have believed it,but it is true.

Zib, That's a serious addiction you have there.

Originally Posted by janivar123

This standardization only takes in account how the Coticule is shaped and does not effect the excellent grinding characteristics. “Selected” provides a homogeneous stone while “Standard” shows cosmetic defects or natural colorization.

Exact quote from ardennes website

OK lets try a different question here because I have read that and what we have from Ardennes on here too. What I am understanding it as not all Coticules are good for razors...

So let just try some deductive reasoning...

Q: The color marks and inclusions in a Coticule vein are made of ????

A: Manganese and Quartz (mostly)

Q: So why would mixing Manganese and Quartz into your Garnets be a good thing??? or not change the equation of the honing matrix???..

We discuss the minute microscopic changes that happen at the edge of the razor yet you sweep this under the rug like it makes no difference at all???

Now to take a another side to that, I also believe that we discuss things that have no bearing on getting a good shave, If you want to say that you can feel no difference in the shave between a Select and a Standard then I could not argue that fact, as it would be your opinion... I am pretty sure we can find someone that thinks those Zeepk hones are shavable too

But to me IMHO, if I am going to strive for the best of the best, then sorry but I will keep my select grades you keep the the standards...If you just want a shaving edge, then we agree, but to make the statement that they are the same, then I would disagree....

I've only used vintage Coticules, none of which are clean (ie without inclusions). All of the five can put a satisfactory edge on a razor but each has different qualities. One, out-performs my vintage Thuringian as a finisher IMO. Whether or not that makes it 12k, I have no idea. The problem (though I don't regard it as such) with these stones is, that they all behave differently.

I started with a multiform that I found in our back building and, though obviously cut for other tools, it put a great edge on my razors (until I bought others, obviously) and is the purest in looks that I have. My advice to anyone going the Coticule route is, be patient. If you're not, go synthetic or another. If you just want a finisher, it is an option, and, IMO, a good one but, if you're trying to replicate an edge that you received that was finished on 12k Naniwa + paste, you're not going to get that with a Coticule. Thought a while before pressing post, hope this helps.

Originally Posted by rjezuit

Zib, That's a serious addiction you have there.

I was a vendor.....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

But to me IMHO, if I am going to strive for the best of the best, then sorry but I will keep my select grades you keep the the standards...If you just want a shaving edge, then we agree, but to make the statement that they are the same, then I would disagree....

I couldn't agree more....!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK lets try a different question here because I have read that and what we have from Ardennes on here too. What I am understanding it as not all Coticules are good for razors...

So let just try some deductive reasoning...

Q: The color marks and inclusions in a Coticule vein are made of ????

A: Manganese and Quartz (mostly)

Q: So why would mixing Manganese and Quartz into your Garnets be a good thing??? or not change the equation of the honing matrix???..

We discuss the minute microscopic changes that happen at the edge of the razor yet you sweep this under the rug like it makes no difference at all???

Bingo.

To my thinking, which may be wrong, I can't see how having inclusions on a stone which are peering through the surface at me are just going to change the appearance of the stone.

Now there seems to be a current argument going around that all coticules are fine enough and good enough to hone a razor and no matter what you use it's going to do the same job but perhaps in a different way. Again, I may be wrong, but I don't agree with this at all, there's grading on these stones and has been for over a hundred years and it's not just because of looks. I don't think carpenters and other workers cared about how pretty their stones were back in 1903. I think the same would've went for barbers who needed to sharpen their tools as well.

I used to have a coticule that was standard grade that I didn't like at all, the end felt like I was shaving with a butter knife. I am sure this was something good enough for a kitchen knife or other tool but for a razor it wasn't good enough for me at all. I tried 300laps on the thing with water and it would still feel dull on my face, not bevel dull but a particular sticky dull that I've only felt with a coticule I wouldn't say works well with a razor. Dull may be the wrong word to explain it but it definitely was an odd feeling edge and I didn't like it at all.

All Coticules are not suited for straight razors, period. Some of the older, more senior members may remember, you couldn't get a standard grade, no one wanted them. Everyone wanted Selected. My understanding is, You cannot get a Selected grade 8x3 from the quarry anymore. They're pretty much gone, possibly mined out... I've been talking to the vendors. The quarry keeps the best stones for themselves, and rightfully so I guess. If it was my quarry, I'd do the same....

The old time Barber's used selected for the most part, I'm sure... It wasn't until recently, someone started testing the standard grade, and making them available for straight razor use.....

Let me put it this way, These odd, standard grade stones had to be sold, it's a product.... There was no market, As I said, No one wanted Standard grade...Now, there's market.....Hmmmmm?

i feel like a troll posting this, but feel it must be said.

coticules are said to have garnets of 5 to 15 micron which would put them at about 1k to 3k.. that may have some relevance when those garnets are loose in a slurry, but does not depict how they perform as a finisher with water.

bbw are said to have garnets of 10 to 25 micron in lower concentration putting it around 0.6k to 1.5k. this reflects neither how fast keen or smooth the stone cuts, which is slow, and reasonably keen and smooth. among those who use both bbw and coti, the bbw is beginning to be used to satisfaction as a finisher on its own.

to call a bbw a 4k, or a coti an 8k isn't very useful even if ardennes calls it so.

and as said before, better-suited technique on a more coarse (or "lesser") hone can produce better results then less-suited technique on a finer (or "better") hone.

not all coti's are the same, and i wont say that varying technique makes up for all differences, but technique must be adjusted on different stones.

can anyone describe what they mean by inclusions in coticules? are these hard inclusions that damage an edge? or are these variations within the mineral matrix surrounding the garnets which give it different colour without a significant difference in honing properties? i have the feeling that some standard coticules are simply coloured something other than solid yellow.