Thread: Naniwa 12K after a Coticule, to improve edges that are good but not great?

It was a western style actually but hey I never said I owned it

Originally Posted by onimaru55

It was a western style actually but hey I never said I owned it

I know you guys are a nation of unrepentant convicts but stealing is still illegal, even in Oz!

Originally Posted by onimaru55

If all stones were the same & produced the same edges you wouldn't have makers offering specific rocks for alloys, stainless, & carbon steels.
Now some may think the variety is a conspiracy to get our cash but try honing a 66HRC Rockwell Iwasaki on just any stones & watch your beard grow as you do it. The myth of matching the steel to the stone can soon become a reality.

tell me about it, the effect is even more pronounced with knives and tools. It's where one really starts to appreciate the right stone for the steel.

Originally Posted by Jimbo7

I know you guys are a nation of unrepentant convicts but stealing is still illegal, even in Oz!

LOL...My family came here on a ship but no convict blood... Maybe mafia tho
I wanted to make the owner an offer he couldn't refuse

Originally Posted by gssixgun

snip...The big argument going on now, is that Paul doesn't think that certain stones produce better edges on certain razors, and I do...
So the solution is to try it and see what you find, the problem is that it costs huge money and time to do the testing... snip

Glen, that's just not true. I didn't say they that certain stones won't produce "better" edges on certain razors. What I said was:"But, for guys like me, I don't think there's any razor that all of the quality stones can't make shave beautifully". I recommend going back and reading the posts. What I said was the differences won't be appreciably different enough to make one result suck and the other awesome. To which I was told that I was "wrong" and then came all the talk about acid tests and stuff. That's what we disagree about.

Earlier in this thread you said that a coticule would be "sorely lacking" if we were talking about honing a TI. The idea that there is a vast, appreciable difference which sometimes warrants buying/having a whole new finisher in order to get great results is what I take issue with.

You don't even believe that, but you like to hear yourself talk according to what you said in that totally unrelated bevel setting thread that you linked to

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I experimented with quite a few, I don't know why, I guess because I still consider the bevel set to be the more important part of the honing process and everyone argues the Finishers.. Trust me there is very little difference in those too, but we like to hear ourselves talk...

It seems that we just agree in funny ways

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Glen, that's just not true. I didn't say they that certain stones won't produce "better" edges on certain razors. What I said was:"But, for guys like me, I don't think there's any razor that all of the quality stones can't make shave beautifully". I recommend going back and reading the posts. What I said was the differences won't be appreciably different enough to make one result suck and the other awesome. To which I was told that I was "wrong" and then came all the talk about acid tests and stuff. That's what we disagree about.

Earlier in this thread you said that a coticule would be "sorely lacking" if we were talking about honing a TI. The idea that there is a vast, appreciable difference which sometimes warrants buying/having a whole new finisher in order to get great results is what I take issue with.

You don't even believe that, but you like to hear yourself talk according to what you said in that totally unrelated bevel setting thread that you linked to



It seems that we just agree in funny ways

No actually we don't

So we are right back to the beginning of the "discussion" which I still stand by, that when sending razors back and forth to assess edges don't forget that the Razor itself is going to have an opinion of which stone works best... Which now you seem to agree with after all that there are differences at the upper end...


And just like I said in that post if you send a Sheffield the Coticule is going to shine and if you send a TI it is not going to be at it's optimum, or sorely laking in the world of the upper end of this hobby...

Again to qualify this we are talking about the upper end here not just shave ready which you seem to keep trying to hide behind...
Paul: "The idea that there is a vast, appreciable difference which sometimes warrants buying/having a whole new finisher in order to get great results is what I take issue with"

If you don't want to discuss the fine fine points that is OK too, and then we do agree that a shavable edge is obtainable on most any of the finshers... but not the BEST...

Now if you want to say that you were just talking about shavable and I was talking about the upper end then we do agree and this was a bunch of wasted time on my part because that was never in doubt...
As what I said is true that there is very very little differences between them but we like to hear ourselves talk...

But there are differences ... In fact don't most of you guys that follow "Coticule Methods" of honing have a completely different way of finishing TI's ???? because they don't react quite like other razors???

I said, and stand behind, there are ways to get every razor (that can take a good edge) to shave "great". Actually, the word I used was "beautifully". That's 100 percent true. Using words like "sorely lacking" doesn't convey the idea that there are very little differences. It conveys the idea that there are they are worlds apart and therefore we need to have multiple options to make up for the "sorely lacking" quality of the edge. That's not true. I have, less than a few months ago, said on this forum that honing stainless steel razors is harder for me on my coticule than carbon steel, but I still get it done with excellent results. I also said that my Shaptons handle the job easily.

I'm not hiding behind "shaveable", but I am willing to tell new guys that they can get greatness with whatever quality setup they have on every type of razor that's fit for shaving provided they acquire the skill.

If you want to get into degrees of greatness, that's fine with me. However, "sorely lacking" doesn't sound like a degree of greatness relative to anything.

Now, to the idea of knowing what's "best": You've said so many times that I don't even think it's necessary to link to one that the face of the individual using the razor may have a very different opinion than someone else's.

But, I'll quote you anyway:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Some times the combination of Hone, Razor, and Honer come together just right and one of those edges happens that just works perfect on your face...

Now, whose "truth" is "the truth" in a case where the "BEST" option really wasn't what the guy who received the razor wanted? That's why I advocate talking about getting the best out of what someone has rather than acting like we all need every conceivable permutation of options available. I say that's nonsense...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

snip ... In fact don't most of you guys that follow "Coticule Methods" of honing have a completely different way of finishing TI's ???? because they don't react quite like other razors???

Sorry, didn't see the edit before my first response.


Well... Could be that it's a consistent observation with their bevel angles, but I don't pretend to have knowledge of why others do what they do or the holder of all "truth". I do know that after receiving another TI from a "professional" that my friend was significantly happier with the edge I put on his TI than the guy he paid to do it. I'm guessing his face lied to him, and he hadn't been enlightened yet.

I figured you would end up discussing semantics rather than honing, Paul but that is what usually happens...

BTW I picked that exact example of a Coticule and a TI for that exact reason that even "Coticule Fans" have recognized the problem there that requires a work around...

There again thank you for proving my "honing point" that Razors do have an opinion in what works best for them...

Also just to keep things straight I normally advocate that people learn how to hone first on a Simple easy system, then decide how far they want to take the hobby... But if they are going to go to the stupid levels, then yep they are going to have multiple finishers in their quiver

Now we are just going to have to disagree here and live with that, which I am good with...

Originally Posted by paco664

thank you for the explanation.... i see your point.... i was kinda exaggerating when i said return to the 6k.....

but if you have honed it out to 30k why bother going back to the natural stone "to create a more forgiving softer edge"?.....

why bother with the 30k if you are going to go backwards?? why not just go straight from the 4k8k to the coti and shave???


i am not trying to cause controversy... i am just trying to understand the reasoning....

One reason to go backwards is demonstrated by the success of
the pyramid method. I was astounded by the effectiveness of
the method and it is still the best kept secret for a lot of
beginners as they start honing.

The classic pyramid was done with a Norton 4k/8K combo hone.

Why it works is a topic for another thread.