Thread: Norton Waterstone Starter Kit

The one that was breadknifed is a Crown & Sword with a full hollow grind. The other stubborn one, of which I do not know its history, is a "W.H. Morlly & Sons, Clover Brand, Germany.

The stones that I currently have are the 240/1k and the 4k/8k. Based on those stones how do you feel that I should proceed? The only method that I am familiar with (familiar with, not good at!) is the above mentioned pyramid method.

For some reason I can't upload photos so I'm just going to share my album from Google+.

Spinsheet

Is your razor sharp at 1K?
Is your ink coming of the bevel evenly?
Is the wear on the tape even across the entire spine?
Pull the top layer of tape off and lay it flat, the wear pattern will be clearly displayed.

As a novice you need to tape to see what you are doing… right or wrong.

If you honed out a chip you have removed considerable steel and will have to do the same to the bevels to get to sharp.

Once you have acquired the muscle memory to hone you can decide if you want to tape or not.

I use two layers of tape at 1K then one layer at 4-8K. At 1K you can remove a lot off the spine as well as the bevel. You can’t put steel back on the spine or edge.

I taped the spine and inked the edge and tried again. It seems that the wear is even on spine, at least the wear on the tape looks uniform all the way. I did notice that on the downstoke (going toward from my body) the ink was coming off of the middle of the edge but not on the toe or heal. On the upstroke the ink was coming off uniformly. I did about 15 strokes (both ways) on a 1k stone, reinked and tried again just to make sure. Same thing. I flipped the stone around to see if the orientation of the stone had anything to do with it but it did not. I would say that I did about 10 sets of 15 strokes at 1k and the razor will not cut arm hair. I know that I am capable of honing a razor as I just honed about four eBay razors that would not cut arm hair when I received them to actually being able to shave with them. And just to set the record straight, while I do not pretend to know how to hone I have been touching up my working razor on a barber's hone as needed for about 3 years now and have been doing fine (or at least adequately).

Should I use the 240 stone as this razor was breadknifed? Thanks for all of the help.

And what is the best way to flatten the flattening stone? I have a marble table top, could I lay some 240 grit sand paper on that and work the flattening stone on there till it's flat? I tried that earlier and saw that the outer edges were getting sanded but the middle was not, leading me to believe that it's a bit concave.

Spinsheet

The skill/muscle memory you are acquiring is how much pressure you are or should be applying. The fact that your pressure is not consistent from one side to the other indicates uneven pressure with your stroke pattern. Pressure is the hardest thing to explain or to quantify.

The ink and tape will tell you how much and where you are applying pressure. Depending how much steel you removed to grind out the chip, it is going to take much more time and laps at 1K to get the two bevels to match. Much more than it takes to touch up an already set bevel. I hesitate to advise you to go to the 240 stone you can do more damage than good at your skill level. I use a 325 diamond stone to get the bevels to meet after butter knifing. If you do, go easy and watch your tape for wear, you will burn through tape more quickly. The 1K will get you there more slowly and you will acquire some skills at the same time.

When I butter knife a chip, I like to sharpie the edge. As you draw the sharpie down the edge you can feel if you completely remove the chip or any other microchips. Actually I draw the Sharpie along the edge of every razor I hone, just to feel for microchips.

Looking straight down at the edge with magnification or at times the naked eye with good light, will tell you if the two bevels are meeting. You cannot get it sharp until they meet (you will no longer see ink or the shinny metal of the edge).

At 1K you actually need some pressure, but even pressure. Pressure is not a bad thing as long as you do no damage. Taping will keep you from grinding the spine, so you can experiment with adding pressure, using 2 hands to hone and possibly a finger on the blade where you need a concentration of pressure. There is a good video on this recently on the forum, I think it was posted by Sixgun or Lynn, check the “advanced honing” thread. Just go slowly, I know the temptation is to grind on it to get it done. You are developing a valuable skill set, almost anyone can hone a sharp razor.

This is the thing that will click for you one day… or you’ll just sneak up on it. That is why Razor honing is different than Knife honing, it is very subtle and can seem mystic. It’s not really, just takes doing. The more you learn, the more you know… you don’t know.

220 may not be enough for the flattening stone, I’d do 80 or 100. 220 will tell you how out of flat it is though. Wet it and stick it to your marble use lots of water, or you can buy a 12X12 marble or granite tile for a couple of buck at Hm Depot or Lowes and you won’t have to worry about scratching you counters

The inking the edge thing has been rather invaluable for me. It's a clear visual reference telling you that you are doing something wrong. I finally got the ink to come off evenly on this razor. It seems that the slightest pressure puts an uneven stress on the razor. With the ink I can see that almost not pressure at all is all you need, simply the weight of the razor is enough to remove metal. I'll need to get a magnifying glass as looking with the naked eye is telling me nothing. What power do you recommend? I've rehoned this razor a few times but each time I try to shave with it, same thing, no good. Not to worry, I've got plenty of time and new stones

I'll get it eventually and I'm learning a lot getting there.

I went out and got some 80 paper for the flattening stone and boy did that take some time. You would think that a flattening stone would be flat, wrong. It is now though. I got it flat with the 80 and then cleaned it up with the 220 and then reflattened my stones.

I do have an interesting issue with one razor. The ink is removing evenly on the upstroke but on the downstroke it seems to be coming off quicker in the middle leaving ink on the heal and toe. I'm not having this issue with other razors so I doubt that it's my technique, not even sure how a poor technique would do that anyway. Any thoughts as to what is happening there?

I do have one razor which I believe is slightly bent. On the upstroke the ink comes off the heal and toe first, not in the middle. One the downstroke just the opposite, it comes off the middle and not the heal and toe. Can I assume that this blade is bent?

I have an old Joseph Elliot 1/4 hollow ground 6/8" razor that would previously not cut butter and now it's my best shaver. It was my first razor and I thought that I would never be able to shave with it, it really feels good being able to take something like that and make it usable. Makes the journey worth it

Great, you are sneaking up on it. As you progress to higher grit stones lighten up on the pressure to refine the edge, which is all that matters. Keep taping and inking the bevel for feedback on what is going on.

If you are not making contact on one stroke, either the edge/ spine is warped or it is technique. Try putting a finger on the spot that is not making contact on that stroke. Remember these razors can be a hundred years old, and who knows how or if they were cared for.

Any magnification works, 20 power is an improvement and will give you more feedback. I like the Radio Shack 60-100. I don’t recall what they sell for, around 10-15 dollars and they are lighted which is nice. It’s not the best glass, but it works and is quick & easy to use.

Make sure to test for sharpness on your arm across the whole edge, at least 3 places heel, center and toe, after each stone progression. Your edges will continue to improve as your technique improves.

A finishing stone or stropping with paste will refine and improve the edge even better, which is the next step in honing madness, but not needed. A length of smooth leather or fine weave nylon will make an adequate strop and improve the edge and shave.

For years I shaved straight off a Black Surgical Ark or Translucent finishing stone and an inexpensive Illinois strop, after an full Ark progression… for many, many years.

A smooth leather belt or piece of CLEAN seatbelt with some polishing paste, with a series of 2 inch X’s painted on with your finger and allowed to dry will make the bevel gleam and smooth out your edge. Flint, Maas, or Mothers work well for me. Actually I think almost any polishing paste works, most are probably Cerium Oxide. It also will refresh a dulling edge.

In the morning I strop on SRD herringbone linen to clean, then a “Mass” X’ed fine weave Nylon strop and shave. The polish also soothes out a Chrome Oxide edge, which I find too harsh. I rarely hit the leather.

This is how it works… it is something you have to figure out for yourself and see what works for you… then fine tune for your razors, face and beard. Sounds like you are on your way… congratulations.

Originally Posted by spinsheet

I do have an interesting issue with one razor. The ink is removing evenly on the upstroke but on the downstroke it seems to be coming off quicker in the middle leaving ink on the heal and toe. I'm not having this issue with other razors so I doubt that it's my technique, not even sure how a poor technique would do that anyway. Any thoughts as to what is happening there?

I do have one razor which I believe is slightly bent. On the upstroke the ink comes off the heal and toe first, not in the middle. One the downstroke just the opposite, it comes off the middle and not the heal and toe. Can I assume that this blade is bent?

Just some general points that are often overlooked.. The spine is a major factor in what happens at the edge. If you have breadknifed a razor due to a frown the spine also reflects that frown. If you then hone that razor with tape you make a smaller bevel but it still wants to match the previous shape as you have not changed the spine only the edge. You may be better off creating more spine wear but correcting the spine by honing without tape.

The whole razor or only edge area may also be warped or ground unevenly. Depending on the degree you may be able to compensate by rocking or rolling the razor to make contact. It will not correct the geometry but you may get a shaver for your trouble. Sometimes a razor may need a regrind due to wear or poor honing.
You may find some extra help here: Honing: Troubleshooting Guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

I just shaved with the breadknifed razor and I must say that it's finally a success. Took about a week and LOTS of honing but it got there. I'm waiting on my go to razor to come back from its professional honing so I have a good baseline to judge my work against. But nevertheless, I got a good comfortable shave with the razor today so I'm happy. I finally took something that literally would not cut paper and made it shavable, and comfortably shavable at that.

And just to clarify, I've been talking back and forth between two razors in this thread, one that I breadknifed and one that seems to be slightly bent because of the wear that it was showing after honing. The breadknifed razor was wearing evenly, it just needed LOTS of honing to get right. The warped razor? Yeah, I gave up on that one, it's simply not a nice enough razor to worry about and even practicing on it won't tell me much.

Anyway, my RAD has kicked in full time. I really need to beat the wife to the mailbox for the next week or so or it's going to get ugly in this house. Damn you eBay...

Congrats on the success. Good luck with the mailbox.

My congratulations also! Glad to hear you worked it out.

Besides Ebay, have you looked in our own classifieds? Nice stuff there, though it usually doesn't need honing.

Best wishes