Thread: Shapton 12K giving worse edge than Norton 8K

Hi all, just wondering if anyone has some thoughts on this conundrum. I am a beginner shaver (~6 months, last 2 months exclusively straight), and a beginner honer, so I don't have much experience on which to base any judgements. I already had a Norton 4/8K and a Shapton 12K for sharpening woodworking tools, so I've been learning how to hone a razor on these stones. I never really had used the Shapton much on my woodworking tools, but I've sharpened chisels, planes, and knives on the Norton 4/8.

What I'm finding is that I can get an ok edge off the Norton 8K which will catch arm hair at a low hover. I'm sure its far inferior to what you experienced honers are capable of. After about 50 X strokes with light pressure, I do 20 with no pressure. The edge looks polished afterwards. If I then go to the Shapton 12K and do some light strokes, the edge does not look as polished afterwards and also more importantly doesn't catch hair as much.

After the 8K I'm doing about 30 strokes on a CrOx strop followed by extended regular stropping. I can shave with this edge, though as I mentioned I'm sure it would be considered sub-par by the discriminating shaver.

Is it just that my honing skills are not up to using the Shapton 12K? Would another make of finishing stone be more likely to do me some good? I'm of a mind to just sell the Shapton since I'm not getting any use out of it, but I could be persuaded to persevere.

My razor is a home made fixed blade in O1 steel, hardened by Mike Blue.

thanks,
-Holly

It is sort of impossible to tell without seeing/feeling the razor. From your description I would think it is a matter of honing technique. You've got 70 round trips with the 8k and then go to the 12k + chrom ox and "extended regular stropping". My guess is it is too much of a good thing. You refer to the bevel looking polished so I'm guessing you're focusing on removing the scratch pattern rather than how sharp the edge is.

There was a honemeister around here years ago, heavydutysg IIRC, who used to say that 95% of honing problems with new honers, could be traced to inadequate bevel set. So this is what I mean when I say it is impossible to tell without seeing and feeling it. Check that you have set the bevel well and focus on the sharpness rather than appearance of the bevel.

All I use the magnification for is to make sure the edge isn't micro chipping on me. I have had the Shapton Pro 12k and it was a good stone. I think it is best to get the shaving edge at the 8k level and test shave. When it is real good at the 8k level go to the higher grit. This way you're sure that it is ready for the higher grit. Going to the higher grit before it is ready can lead to more work than necessary if not complete frustration. Just IMHO.

Check out this wonderful info and I'm no expert honer but I still have a hard time setting the bevel properly so I'll bestow on you this awesome knowledge boom.........
Bevel-setting in theory and practice - Straight Razor Place Wiki

I am not a Shapton 12k user I do use all the others

I will say this though, there are some stones that don't react to "Tests" all that well, the middle grits in the Naniwas have that problem for me, and I did quite a bit of extra honing before I figured it out..

Try the 8k shave test, if that works then do the 12k laps starting at maybe 20 it should not take more than that,, and try a shave test and see what happens..

I had the same experience with the high number shaptons and was tempted to sell mine as well. Thanks goodness I didn't. After experimenting for a long time I found i was over using them and when I learned the "real" how to use them, I wouldn't take for my 16 or 30k. For me the 30k was a separate learning experience altogether. Also...the 30k isn't usable on all razors IMHO.
Stingray

I would suggest not using the chrox and see how your edge feels. Then you will be able to truly gauge your skills off the stone. Using pastes and powders can be good in moderation after you have built your stone honing skills, but using them to compensate for lack of skill can hinder the over all learning experience (just my opinion). Make sure your bevel is set, also make sure you can get a shave ready edge at the 8k level before playing with higher grits.

Sometimes less is more...try doing less strokes on the shapton, test shave, and then try again if necessary. I've never used the shaptons to be honest but have found with other stones that experimentation is key and part of the fun Some need less, some need more.
Sounds like you have a decent bevel if it's popping arm hairs but like Jimmy said, it's hard to tell without razor in hand

Thanks for the tips everyone. I tend to think the bevel is ok, since it just got put in as part of me making the razor in the first place. Of course that doesn't mean its not poorly done!

I have not tried, but I don't think I would say the edge off the 8K is shave ready. It gets reasonable after the crox and stropping, but as mentioned above that is probably a band aid for poor honing. So I guess I shouldn't even be thinking about the 12K until I can get a good edge off the 8K. Still, it did seem like if anything it should get better rather than worse after the 12K. But one mystery at a time I suppose. I'll keep working on getting good results from the 8K.

Thanks,
-Holly

Originally Posted by xMackx

I would suggest not using the chrox and see how your edge feels. Then you will be able to truly gauge your skills off the stone. Using pastes and powders can be good in moderation after you have built your stone honing skills, but using them to compensate for lack of skill can hinder the over all learning experience (just my opinion). Make sure your bevel is set, also make sure you can get a shave ready edge at the 8k level before playing with higher grits.

If you want to learn honing on high grit stones, pastes are a crutch. IThey will hurt your learning experience more than help you.

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you want to learn honing on high grit stones, pastes are a crutch. IThey will hurt your learning experience more than help you.

I've heard that before "Pastes are a crutch". I use the Shapton GS series for honing, up to 16k. I get great edges, but I don't like the way the blade feels coming off the 16k, and from what I understand, I'm not alone. I normally "chill it out" with some crox, or an Escher.

As far the 30k goes, which I don't own, I hear you can do as little as 2 strokes on it....You don't need much.
The Shaptons are fast.