Thread: Jnat finishing

Originally Posted by ocelot27

JNats being the most fascinating IMO. Some of mine don't leave a scratch pattern at all - just sparkly metal - how this is I don't know - that's the limit of light microscopy. JNats are the most unique hones out there and I'm happy they exist!

Don't have a definitve answer there but it has something to do with the less angular shape of the abrasive & the less than consistent size of it, reflecting light less evenly.

With water alone, some of the very fine Jnats leave a scratchy looking finish due to the consistency of their particle size much in the way a synthetic will. Of course once slurry is involved & particle sizes change & get added to with steel swarf cosmetics change again.

Originally Posted by ocelot27

Scientifically speaking, it's still really only the last abrasive that shapes the edge that matters - everything preceding it is erased by the finishing process if done correctly. While I appreciate the "romance" of using your setup, going from a synthetic 8K (for example) to a high quality JNat will essentially leave the same exact edge as your progression if the final abrasive is identical. I've been studying edges with microscopy since I started honing and the final bevel scratch patterns obviously vary widely from abrasive to abrasive - JNats being the most fascinating IMO. Some of mine don't leave a scratch pattern at all - just sparkly metal - how this is I don't know - that's the limit of light microscopy. JNats are the most unique hones out there and I'm happy they exist!

Just my $0.02

-john

I find that using naturals throughout to give the smoothest edge. I wish I could agree with you, as it would save me lots of time. I use a chosera 1k, then all naturals, a striped iyoto to clean up the chosera, a suita for prefinish, and a full nagura progression from yae to koma, then a tomonagura or 2. Not saying your wrong, but for me anyway thats the way I find it. Regarding diamond plate slurry, your slurry to start is the same as the slurry to finish as opposed to using naguras that create grit in a progression on your finishing stone. Its a learning curve alright! I will say that for sure! I look at it like propane grills vs charcoal. Both can cook a steak fine, but the charcoal can add alot to it that you cant get from propane or natural gas. Ok I know, enough Bill! Im done ranting. LOL.

Originally Posted by bill3152

I find that using naturals throughout to give the smoothest edge. I wish I could agree with you, as it would save me lots of time. I use a chosera 1k, then all naturals, a striped iyoto to clean up the chosera, a suita for prefinish, and a full nagura progression from yae to koma, then a tomonagura or 2. Not saying your wrong, but for me anyway thats the way I find it. Regarding diamond plate slurry, your slurry to start is the same as the slurry to finish as opposed to using naguras that create grit in a progression on your finishing stone. Its a learning curve alright! I will say that for sure! I look at it like propane grills vs charcoal. Both can cook a steak fine, but the charcoal can add alot to it that you cant get from propane or natural gas. Ok I know, enough Bill! Im done ranting. LOL.

As a scientist with too much education in chemistry, metallurgy, materials science etc, until I see true evidence that there is a difference in the edges I will agree to disagree. As for the slurry issue the same goes - have you measured particle sizes? How do you know this? If it's just by "feel" then that's not very scientific - there are just too many variables - including placebo effect. The fact is, no one can say with veracity that a slurry generated with a diamond abrasive is any different than a slurry generated with any another abrasive unless they have done the research to prove it. There are many ways to achieve excellent results - if yours works for you then stick with it! I'm glad there are so many ways to sharpen a piece of steel - what matters is what's best for the person doing the honing and how they like the results which of course is entirely subjective.

Post count ≠ experience.

-john

Originally Posted by ocelot27

As a scientist with too much education in chemistry, metallurgy, materials science etc, until I see true evidence that there is a difference in the edges I will agree to disagree. As for the slurry issue the same goes - have you measured particle sizes? How do you know this? If it's just by "feel" then that's not very scientific - there are just too many variables - including placebo effect. The fact is, no one can say with veracity that a slurry generated with a diamond abrasive is any different than a slurry generated with any another abrasive unless they have done the research to prove it. There are many ways to achieve excellent results - if yours works for you then stick with it! I'm glad there are so many ways to sharpen a piece of steel - what matters is what's best for the person doing the honing and how they like the results which of course is entirely subjective.

Post count ≠ experience.

-john

Im not a scientist or professional honer. I have experimented with many different hones, cotis, synths, eschers, jnats, cnat, pastes etc. As well as many different ways to hone a razor. Again no professional here, but I have put time in believe me. If your not interested in hearing about a tried and true method that has worked for hundreds of years for the Japanese, then thats fine. When people talk about things I havent tried, I dont form an opinion unless i tried it myself. But thats your choice again.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Im not a scientist or professional honer. I have experimented with many different hones, cotis, synths, eschers, jnats, cnat, pastes etc. As well as many different ways to hone a razor. Again no professional here, but I have put time in believe me. If your not interested in hearing about a tried and true method that has worked for hundreds of years for the Japanese, then thats fine. When people talk about things I havent tried, I dont form an opinion unless i tried it myself. But thats your choice again.

You've made the assumption that I haven't tried a full JNat progression - I own them all. After studying the edges with light microscopy after a natural progression and going from an 8K Shapton ceramic to a JNat finisher I have made no observation of discernible difference in the final edge. You've missed the point entirely - it's not that I'm not interested in hearing about something I already know about, it's that I'm trying to point out when you make a claim that one method is better than another you should provide some evidence to substantiate it. And assuming that someone has no experience because they favor a certain method is also misguided. Just because something has been done for thousands of years doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, made more efficient etc etc. People used to bleed people when they got sick, not sterilize surgical instruments, drink out of lead cups, make fire by rubbing sticks together etc etc - I'll take the Bic lighter to light my charcoal grill.

-john

I need you to show me scientifically why I prefer vanilla to chocolate. I mean there has to be a reason and empirical evidence. After all you are a scientist. And what exactly does a "good" edge look like? If you are looking for esthetics lapping film will give you that mirror finish that looks so good but I personally dont like using it as my eyes water when im shaving with it.Dia plates are much coarser than naguras are. 325 dmt will raise larger particles. 325 dmt is 45 microns compared to 6 -8 k tomonaguras. Which are like 3 or 4 microns. The larger the "shovel" the deeper it will dig into the stone, beside naguras actually smoothen stones, not rough them up.

Originally Posted by bill3152

I need you to show me scientifically why I prefer vanilla to chocolate. I mean there has to be a reason and empirical evidence. After all you are a scientist. And what exactly does a "good" edge look like? If you are looking for esthetics lapping film will give you that mirror finish that looks so good but I personally dont like using it as my eyes water when im shaving with it.Dia plates are much coarser than naguras are. 325 dmt will raise larger particles. 325 dmt is 45 microns compared to 6 -8 k tomonaguras. Which are like 3 or 4 microns. The larger the "shovel" the deeper it will dig into the stone, beside naguras actually smoothen stones, not rough them up.

There is no reason why you prefer vanilla to chocolate - that's personal preference and not what this discussion is about. If you prefer your method that's great - go for it - enjoy the heck out of it.

Lets go over this one more time. You've claimed that the slurry made with a natural stone somehow differs from that made with a fine diamond coated abrasive plate (not necessarily a DMT 325) - that may be true but I haven't seen any evidence to show that. Nor have I seen any evidence of the smoothening effect you claim - my stones are like glass. In fact, for all we know, the slurry made with a fine diamond plate may be far superior than that made with a natural stone - who knows? Second, you've claimed that using a natural progression produces a different final edge than using a synthetic progression and finishing on the same JNat finishing hone. I disagree. If you feel a difference that's great - stick with it - placebo effect is real. The edges when viewed under high magnification do not differ; whether or not they feel different to you is another matter way beyond the scope of this debate. The microscopic appearance of "good" edges vary widely depending, of course, on the way they were honed - even JNat edges vary widely. There is no textbook picture of a "good" edge and I'm not sure why you claim I'm looking for esthetics - have I mentioned that? This is about a comparison. I'm out - peace - I have honing to do.

-john

Anyone who refers to themselves as a scientist "is one". There is a cure for it though.
If I kick you in the nuts, does it hurt? Scientifically speaking of course.

Without getting into what progression people prefer (which is really all personal preference unless you're honing lots of razors for others; then speed comes into the picture no matter what you finish on), here's a blog post from the seller I bought my latest stone from.

The system of using naguras is actually rather new (ca. 70 years or so) and while I don't claim to know loads of what barbers were using prior to the introduction of this system, many were probably just maintaining their edges w/ their finishers & tomo slurry. I agree with Alex though that, had the diamond plate been invented way back then, some people probably would have tried it, especially on the last stones quarried, which were the super hard variety.

A peak into the past and the future regarding Jnats. | thejapanblade.com Blog

I will say the slurry from my Tomo and dmt are vastly different. My Tomo slurry seems to be all Tomo while dmt slurry is all base stone. Which is better? I haven't figured that out yet.