Thread: Jnat finishing

Originally Posted by bill3152

Why have hones then, why not get all dmts to 8k and then use 1 dia slurry or tomo?

Because...
1. I would have to buy a set of DMT's & TBH i don't like them, mainly cause they leave deep scratches.
2. DMT 8k scratches may be 8k wide but they're about 4k deep & I don't want to waste time & finishing stone.


Edit: I just remembered I did buy a set of DMT's & tried this about 5 years ago. Buying a set of waterstones was like putting a fourth wheel on a car that only had 3 . Worked much better

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Here's some empirical, non scientific, maybe even pleonastic statements.

I shave off an Atoma 1200 diamond plate slurry on my Nakayama Asagi.
I can also shave off the same stone & a fine Tomo slurry but I won't shave off any Nagura stage.
So I say all Nagura, except a Tomo are coarser than a diamond plate slurry & how you get to end game does'nt much matter.

Ive shaved off of all of them and there is a a definite refining of the edge in the progression. Continuous sharp and smooth differences between them. According to your comment, then I should forgo the 4k in a progression as its not as fine as my 20k. I think we would all agree that the 4k is necessary or a link is broken. And a nagura finished edge at that level is much smoother in the shave test than a synthetic 4k IME. I have a hideriyama suita that is maybe 5k but leaves no scratches at 10x,(there are scratches as the haze is just that, just very shallow ones) just a haze. I have never experienced that with a synthetic stone at that level so something else is going on.

Originally Posted by bill3152

IAccording to your comment, then I should forgo the 4k in a progression as its not as fine as my 20k. I think we would all agree that the 4k is necessary or a link is broken. And a nagura finished edge at that level is much smoother in the shave test than a synthetic 4k IME. I have a hideriyama suita that is maybe 5k but leaves no scratches at 10x,(there are scratches as the haze is just that, just very shallow ones) just a haze. I have never experienced that with a synthetic stone at that level so something else is going on.

Sorry Bill don't understand the point you're making here. (in red)

Are you saying a nagura edge eg botan etc is a smoother shave than 4k ? Kinda irrelevant unless your testing your honing ?

Bravo Bruno. This would be the end all of testing.

My take on honing changed when I went to a honing meetup and met Nelson(bayamontate). At the time I was using dia plates like everyone else. The edges were great but compared to what? Anyway having shaved one of his edges I immediately knew thats what I wanted. So I emulated what he does and have been able to improve what I get from a dia plate little by little using naguras. Now when I hone a razor, I judge the shave. And I hone and shave almost constantly, almost a fresh edge every day. Why? Because 3 months ago I was nailing one of 3. Thats objective dont you think? Im using the same stone and naguras and 2 of the 3 arent great. So thats what I do, I think im at 2 out of 3 now. I always start at the chosera 1k, as I dont want to further refine the same edge over and over. Anyway I honed one yesterday, with 1200 atoma slurry. Sorry to say it wasnt a great shave, it was plenty good and sharp and smoothness was good but not great. Needless to say it was on par with what I was doing last year. The only judge I have is myself, and doing it this way I expect to nail every one and improve even more. The AHA! edges are never with a dia plate IMO, they are with naguras for me anyway.

Originally Posted by bill3152

The AHA! edges are never with a dia plate IMO, they are with naguras for me anyway.

The atoma slurry is made from your topnotch superfine finisher. Why then is a coarser nagura a better option ? Or is your Tomo finer than your finisher ?

You may be creating too much slurry with your atoma. I cannot easily see slurry when I use my atoma on my finisher but some is present. 5 light circles with the atoma is all i use.
Your stone may finish better on water alone. You may be using too much pressure with the atoma.

You may be able to improve both your nagura & atoma finished razors with 2-3 strokes on a Gok 12 or on the finisher in a dry state.

Just food for thought.

Thanks for the tip. I have the suehiro 20k, and had the nani 12, not interested in these edges. The last slurry I finish on is any one of 30 tomo naguras I have, these are not coarse stones at all. And using yae botan, botan, tenjou, TBn, mejiro, chu, koma and 1 or 2 tomos will refine much more than a one size fits all atoma slurry. JMHO. It does take time though and I think most are not interested in spending it.

I also use a 2x3 worn out Atoma 1200 a lot, so worn out it takes time to generate slurry and produces no visible scratches on the hone. The finishing slurry is much thinner than most folks use, it's just slurry-tinged water to use someone else's term. Very thin.

I only have three natural "tomos" that work as well as this plate on my best finishers. One is a very, very, hard piece of koma and I think it's producing mostly awasedo slurry from the color of the slurry, and it works best if I deglaze that koma one in a while. Another is a piece of a teniyou suita razor hone I dropped and broke, the only time I borked a hone so I made naguras out of half of it. The final one is a small piece of kiita picked up in Japan by a friend of mine.

That said, I do have some tiny hand held hones I occasionally use as naguras.

Cheers, Steve

Well, I just ordered an Ozuku Tomo from Aframes Japan to see what that does for me. Seems like finding a great Tomo is very hit or miss assuming you don't cut one directly from your stone; which crossed my mind. I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with. The edge from the JNS Tomo isn't bad but I bought a really fine stone to really hit the outer limits and not be held back by my Tomo. I saw Glenn started a thread recently about Naguras and how much of a role your base stone truly plays and the results are very interesting to read.

Originally Posted by aa1192

Well, I just ordered an Ozuku Tomo from Aframes Japan to see what that does for me. Seems like finding a great Tomo is very hit or miss assuming you don't cut one directly from your stone; which crossed my mind. I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with. The edge from the JNS Tomo isn't bad but I bought a really fine stone to really hit the outer limits and not be held back by my Tomo. I saw Glenn started a thread recently about Naguras and how much of a role your base stone truly plays and the results are very interesting to read.

AN ozuku is a very hard stone. This is a good thing! It is likely it is harder than your base stone. ROund a corner on your dmt to smooth it and use that to produce your slurry. If done carefully you will end up with much more base stone slurry than tomo. But it will be much finer than the dia slurry IMO. Same stone tomos IME arent the best. Out of all my stones(2 dozen or so) I only found one that plays nice with same stone tomo. Just keep that in mind before you decide to chop an end off.