Thread: Jnat finishing

I also use a 2x3 worn out Atoma 1200 a lot, so worn out it takes time to generate slurry and produces no visible scratches on the hone. The finishing slurry is much thinner than most folks use, it's just slurry-tinged water to use someone else's term. Very thin.

I only have three natural "tomos" that work as well as this plate on my best finishers. One is a very, very, hard piece of koma and I think it's producing mostly awasedo slurry from the color of the slurry, and it works best if I deglaze that koma one in a while. Another is a piece of a teniyou suita razor hone I dropped and broke, the only time I borked a hone so I made naguras out of half of it. The final one is a small piece of kiita picked up in Japan by a friend of mine.

That said, I do have some tiny hand held hones I occasionally use as naguras.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Here's some empirical, non scientific, maybe even pleonastic statements.

I shave off an Atoma 1200 diamond plate slurry on my Nakayama Asagi.
I can also shave off the same stone & a fine Tomo slurry but I won't shave off any Nagura stage.
So I say all Nagura, except a Tomo are coarser than a diamond plate slurry & how you get to end game does'nt much matter.

Ive shaved off of all of them and there is a a definite refining of the edge in the progression. Continuous sharp and smooth differences between them. According to your comment, then I should forgo the 4k in a progression as its not as fine as my 20k. I think we would all agree that the 4k is necessary or a link is broken. And a nagura finished edge at that level is much smoother in the shave test than a synthetic 4k IME. I have a hideriyama suita that is maybe 5k but leaves no scratches at 10x,(there are scratches as the haze is just that, just very shallow ones) just a haze. I have never experienced that with a synthetic stone at that level so something else is going on.

Originally Posted by bill3152

IAccording to your comment, then I should forgo the 4k in a progression as its not as fine as my 20k. I think we would all agree that the 4k is necessary or a link is broken. And a nagura finished edge at that level is much smoother in the shave test than a synthetic 4k IME. I have a hideriyama suita that is maybe 5k but leaves no scratches at 10x,(there are scratches as the haze is just that, just very shallow ones) just a haze. I have never experienced that with a synthetic stone at that level so something else is going on.

Sorry Bill don't understand the point you're making here. (in red)

Are you saying a nagura edge eg botan etc is a smoother shave than 4k ? Kinda irrelevant unless your testing your honing ?

Well yes I am testing my honing. Absolutely. I dont want to take any preconceived ideas as fact until I can do it myself and say yes or no. The fact that a nagura shaves better than a 4k means that the edge is more refined and smooth at that level. Thats what Ive found up the line with naguras. Sorry I dont agree that it doesnt matter. My hideriyama suita is like a 5k or so, the difference between it and a chosera or nubutama 5k is night and day with a definitely shaveable from the suita, the whole face now including the neck. I wouldnt do that with a synth 5k. If I pick up bits and pieces of refinement, I believe it definitely reflects on the final edge and I have proven it to myself anyway as I dont use synths after chosera 1k for my razors. I think an atoma slurry can deliver a very good edge. Plenty sharp and smoother than a suehiro 20k IMO also, but it wont win any ribbons in my shave test. And theres a learning curve that has to come into play. Meaning you will not nail the first one.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Well yes I am testing my honing. Absolutely. I dont want to take any preconceived ideas as fact until I can do it myself and say yes or no. The fact that a nagura shaves better than a 4k means that the edge is more refined and smooth at that level. Thats what Ive found up the line with naguras. Sorry I dont agree that it doesnt matter. My hideriyama suita is like a 5k or so, the difference between it and a chosera or nubutama 5k is night and day with a definitely shaveable from the suita, the whole face now including the neck. I wouldnt do that with a synth 5k. If I pick up bits and pieces of refinement, I believe it definitely reflects on the final edge and I have proven it to myself anyway as I dont use synths after chosera 1k for my razors. I think an atoma slurry can deliver a very good edge. Plenty sharp and smoother than a suehiro 20k IMO also, but it wont win any ribbons in my shave test. And theres a learning curve that has to come into play. Meaning you will not nail the first one.

I see, I see. Too slow a process for some of my workloads but I'm sure you'll get top shaves that way.

I find synthetics up to 8 or 12 k to be faster & the Jnats I use after that, usually 2 , erase the previous scratches & further refine the edge so it's still irrelevant in my progression. I very often finish on water or a dry stone so our processes are kinda different. People reading should also realise our Jnats may be like chalk & cheese which is colouring the way we approach honing.

What's an atoma slurry? You guys figure out a way to get the 1200 diamond plate to give up some mud??

Here's a simple formula:

(grunt grit) + (intermediate grit) + (finisher grit) = shave ready edge.

No need to complicate, many paths lead to a good result IMO. The only thing I will say is that I've noticed my final finishing Jnat works best (or perhaps more efficiently) if the edge is already pretty nice. If I feel in the mood I'll make a light slurry on the finisher with my 1.2K Atoma, but most of the time I don't. Never noticed what you'd call an appreciable difference either way.

As Oz says, Jnat finishers are kinda unique-ish. Best advice is to get to know your stones through experimentation and practice, and then you'll get the best out of them. Unfortunately with Jnats the best you can usually do is offer general advice - the minutiae discussions often say more about your individual stones than they do about using Jnats more broadly.

James.

Well, I just ordered an Ozuku Tomo from Aframes Japan to see what that does for me. Seems like finding a great Tomo is very hit or miss assuming you don't cut one directly from your stone; which crossed my mind. I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with. The edge from the JNS Tomo isn't bad but I bought a really fine stone to really hit the outer limits and not be held back by my Tomo. I saw Glenn started a thread recently about Naguras and how much of a role your base stone truly plays and the results are very interesting to read.

Originally Posted by aa1192

Well, I just ordered an Ozuku Tomo from Aframes Japan to see what that does for me. Seems like finding a great Tomo is very hit or miss assuming you don't cut one directly from your stone; which crossed my mind. I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with. The edge from the JNS Tomo isn't bad but I bought a really fine stone to really hit the outer limits and not be held back by my Tomo. I saw Glenn started a thread recently about Naguras and how much of a role your base stone truly plays and the results are very interesting to read.

AN ozuku is a very hard stone. This is a good thing! It is likely it is harder than your base stone. ROund a corner on your dmt to smooth it and use that to produce your slurry. If done carefully you will end up with much more base stone slurry than tomo. But it will be much finer than the dia slurry IMO. Same stone tomos IME arent the best. Out of all my stones(2 dozen or so) I only found one that plays nice with same stone tomo. Just keep that in mind before you decide to chop an end off.

Originally Posted by bill3152

But it will be much finer than the dia slurry .

I think this is where I tend to disagree..

I have read this same statement by near every person that uses Nagura and have read the exact opposite from every one that uses only their stone..

To be absolutely honest it make s no logical sense nor have I seen proof..

Slurry released by rubbing two stones together, one of which is known to be softer and coarser, makes a smaller initial grit release then using a uniform diamond plate that give off no grit particles of it's own not logical

Then we have to discuss breakdown since most of us do believe that all our J-nat slurries are Friable we must therefore believe that the slurry break down. I have a bit more of a hard time believing that two separate and distinct grits from two stones breaks down finer then one grit from a very fine stone...

I guess it could be true but lacking real proof, I have to say I am highly skeptical but it seems that it is a case of "often repeated easily believed"

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think this is where I tend to disagree..

I have read this same statement by near every person that uses Nagura and have read the exact opposite from every one that uses only their stone..

To be absolutely honest it make s no logical sense nor have I seen proof..

Slurry released by rubbing two stones together, one of which is known to be softer and coarser, makes a smaller initial grit release then using a uniform diamond plate that give off no grit particles of it's own not logical

Then we have to discuss breakdown since most of us do believe that all our J-nat slurries are Friable we must therefore believe that the slurry break down. I have a bit more of a hard time believing that two separate and distinct grits from two stones breaks down finer then one grit from a very fine stone...

I guess it could be true but lacking real proof, I have to say I am highly skeptical but it seems that it is a case of "often repeated easily believed"

Thanks for the comment. Well Im not a scientist but Ive used many different materials to do some scratch tests. I used glass at first but realizing that glass is as hard or harder than most stone even though alot of whats in a Jnat is silicate. Anyway, I used a piece of plexiglass, ran a dmt on it , then I took a tomo nagura rounded corner as I use and ran it on the plexi. Big difference in scratch patterns in the 2 samples. Now what are scratches? These are marks made by an abrasive. Ive tried this on the side of a coke bottle, same thing and a scrap of marble as well. I used the material being scratched held vertical so as not to say the plate is heavier than the tomo. Many tomo naguras are at the same level particle wise as finishing stones, which is probably 6-10k maximum. I think the rapid breaking of slurry is occuring with dia plate slurry as a result of the abrasiveness of the larger particles on each other. A dmt or atoma is made to cut into steel or stone, thus the teeth and orientation of these diamonds, stones while they can break off large particles if your not careful, IMO release smaller particles. Again Im not a scientist but I feel these observations make sense to me. I welcome any other comments or experiments any others have done. If what Im saying doesnt make sense, thats ok. It just makes sense to me.