Thread: Question About Finishing with Coticule and Taping

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

Not to get off the subject a little but I got a little birthday cash to burn and was wondering. I have been quite slow to expand my meager collection of hones and jump into things like Coticules. My curiosity about these stones peaks and wanes on hearing so many conflicting experiences related to how these stones perform. At the moment I have settled into just using Japanese synthetics to do all the grunt work and finishing on my one and only B/G Thuri with happy results. What should I expect from a Coticule, will it change my life or is it more of the same or worse? As far the comments about HHT of course its not universal but it can be a personal way to judge an edge in your own realm of observations. I dont use HHT to judge my own blades but I do find that tree topping my arm hair is a good indicator that my shave will be fine of course this is not necessarily transferable to another user.

~~~Try coticule and see what *you* think of the edge. Some like it, some don't. I personally prefer to shave with a coti edge. others may have better and different ideas

Originally Posted by Badgister

It isn't an exact science, and the numbers are just a way of placing the edge somewhere on a spectrum. Admittedly, numbers can mean different things to different people, just like how it shaves on ones face. Next time I should just use an adjective like "awesome" instead of HHT4.

This. It is not an exact science, just a way of trying to make sense of varying levels of sharpness. I think we all agree that there are varying levels of sharpness, not just "sharp" and "blunt", and an edge does not magically cross that grey area in between by snapping one's fingers. Yet when someone came up with some sort of scale in attempting to gauge the changes going on at a nearly microscopic level, people yell 'Ah, random numbers, poppycock!'.

The numbers were assigned to make it easier to refer to certain approximate levels of sharpness. That's it. If the people responsible for coining the idea had noticed only three visually distinct stages, lets say blunt-sharp-awesomesharp, that would have been the division.

Originally Posted by coticule.be/hanging-hair-test.html

• HHT-0 - shave:The hair can be shaved immediately at the holding point. This is strictly spoken not a true HHT, but it does tell us that the edge is capable of shaving. [all other attempts must be made at least half an inch from the holding point]
• HHT-1 - violin : The hair doesn't cut, but it "plays violin" with the edge. This is due to the shingles catching the edge, but it's not sharp enough to penetrate. On a full hollow razor, a faint ringing sound can be heard. On all razors it can be felt with the fingertips that hold the hair.
• HHT-2 - split: When it is dragged across the edge, the edge catches the hair and splits it lengthwise.
• HHT-3 - catch&pop: When it is dragged across the edge a bit, the edge catches the hair and pops it. The severed part will jump away.
• HHT-4 - pop: The hair is popped immediately when it touches the edge. It still jumps away.
• HHT-5 - silent slicer: The hair falls silently as soon as it touches the edge.

From http://coticule.be/hanging-hair-test.html

The five numbers indicate stages of sharpness that can be visually distinguished from another by use of a hair. A hair that comes from a set of hairs that is as homogeneous as possible (within reason, without measuring individual hairs' thickness), with a standardised execution to try minimise circumstantial variables. Half of the article discusses proper calibration. This probing method is not necessarily 100% scientifically watertight (and nowhere in the article is that claim even hinted at), but it is a good way of getting some idea about the progress of the edge. Instead of guessing. Enlighten me on the silliness in that.

This reference scale was developed by people mainly using coticules, which due to the nature of the method of use (diluting slurry) make it difficult to pinpoint exactly where one is in the honing process, more so than synthetics where the grit rating gives at least some general indication where one is in the in the progression (assuming the honer has some idea of what he is doing). Any help is welcome, and many find the HHT helpful. Some people say magnification is helpful. Some people say 'Do a pyramid-type jumping back and forth between hones, because it works'. In the end, all we are trying to do is getting a very thin edge very sharp. There is some logical reasoning behind the HHT; it is not something someone came up with by dragging three random hairs across five random edges to look smart.

Originally Posted by shakinjake

[...] in regards to the dissent on the effectiveness using HHT. More power to the dissenters. If it doesn't work nor make sense for some, that's fine with me but I don't see any purpose in ridiculing it for those that get results using it

I don't care for shaving off synthetic hones, yet others do and I don't derive any pleasure throwing rocks at them

I think why the HHT scale as mentioned above gets ridiculed here and there is because it can come across as an exact, scientific approach to measuring sharpness, being relatively exact in its wording, even though there are disclaimers in the HHT article on coticule.be that explicitly mention it is merely an indicative tool for edge probing:

Originally Posted by coticule.be//hanging-hair-test.html

[...] we should realize that all the tests are merely an aid to guide us through a honing job. The scope of this article is to expand the arsenal of available methods for probing an edge

It is not the be-all and end-all of judging sharpness; it is a way to replace some of the mysticism surrounding honing razors with pragmatism. The five (or six) sharpness variations observed in the article are indications of where an edge is in the grey area between 'not suitable for shaving' and 'suitable for shaving' that can be visually distinguished from one another. Because there are varying levels of sharpness. It is an attempt to take some of the of guesswork out of sharpening. Why that needs to be ridiculed is beyond me, I thought this forum was about providing people with tools to apply on their own wet shaving journey. This is a useful tool for quite a few people, like the thumb pad test, magnification, instructional videos and what have you.

It may read as if I am repeating myself here, but apparently some points need to be hammered home.

Originally Posted by shakinjake

~~~here's a suggestion when it comes to honing using coticules. If you're having trouble and or you can't get HHT3 off the stone using dilucot http://coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html

Try using unicot http://coticule.be/unicot.html

A lot of us have had our fair share of frustration trying to get an HHT3 off the stone and HHT4 after stropping using the dilucot procedure

If you want HHT3 off the stone and you can't get it using dilucot, then go for unicot. There's no shame in using tape to get HHT3 off the stone and you'll get there with unicot. others may have better and different ideas


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

Notice that you are the one that brought up HHT3 and HHT4. Notice also that you were giving advice to someone else, and in that advice you chose to give advice regarding how to achieve HHT3.

Originally Posted by shakinjake

in regards to the dissent on the effectiveness using HHT. More power to the dissenters. If it doesn't work nor make sense for some, that's fine with me but I don't see any purpose in ridiculing it for those that get results using it

Nobody ridiculed the HHT, but when you or anyone else projects that arbitrary scale onto others I'm going to point out the problem; and that problem is the arbitrary nature of the the HHT in general and the number scale in the specific. Odds are good that your hair is not the same as my hair and so the manner in which your hair is cut will not be the same as the way that mine is cut. The HHT is an assessment that an INDIVIDUAL honer may or may not choose to use to assess their blades' ability to cut their own hair, but it does not translate in a comparable manner to every other honer.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I get HHT 14 when my edge it really ready to shave...

So obviously you guys are doing it wrong

(Now do you understand just how inaccurate using arbitrary numbers really is )

Using your own HHT system works just fine but telling somebody that you get an arbitrary HHT # by way of the internet is about as unscientific as it gets, unless you are sending that hair to them

And I have a 14th Dan in Honekwando.

All jokes aside, my pre stropping HHT is infaliable when using chest hair. It would be my pleasure to send some, free of charge, to any of our esteemed members.

Are you going to take your undershirt off so we can see the chest hairs?

There have been a lot of posts since I last checked this thread and I see some interesting comments. I thought I would respond to a few and give an update on my progress.

As I mentioned before, it turned out it was very light rust that had formed on the blades, not tape residue. So, Pithor hit the nail on the head. Fortunately some very light sanding with 2K took care of it. I've started using 3M tape, so maybe that will help reduce this some in the future. I will try replacing the tape more often too as was suggested earlier.


Dilucot method. I just scanned the article and think I will try that next time. I've already done some of the things recommended when honing, but I may try following the steps closely and see how it works for me.

HHT. It seems to be a good way of testing edges for some people, but it doesn't really work for me, even after stropping. I'm in my 20's and my hair is thinning, so maybe the rest of my hair is getting tougher in order to survive the culling.

Originally Posted by JP5

There have been a lot of posts since I last checked this thread and I see some interesting comments. I thought I would respond to a few and give an update on my progress.

As I mentioned before, it turned out it was very light rust that had formed on the blades, not tape residue. So, Pithor hit the nail on the head. Fortunately some very light sanding with 2K took care of it. I've started using 3M tape, so maybe that will help reduce this some in the future. I will try replacing the tape more often too as was suggested earlier.

I'm glad you got it off the blade. It happened to me a lot in the beginning, and was very frustrating, not in the least because it seemed to coincide with edges that would just refuse to get as sharp as they needed to be. Which brings me to another reason to change tape frequently: tape wears much faster than steel, so if you hone too long with the same bit of tape, the honing angle will slowly decrease, causing the slurry to hardly work at the very apex any more.

Originally Posted by JP5

Dilucot method. I just scanned the article and think I will try that next time. I've already done some of the things recommended when honing, but I may try following the steps closely and see how it works for me.

If you can get unicot (i.e. the secondary bevel method) to work, I would say go for it. It will be frustrating every now and then, but very rewarding when you nail it.

Originally Posted by JP5

HHT. It seems to be a good way of testing edges for some people, but it doesn't really work for me, even after stropping. I'm in my 20's and my hair is thinning, so maybe the rest of my hair is getting tougher in order to survive the culling.

I find the HHT useful when diluting, but not very necessary when using unicot, as it is pretty fool proof - granted your bevel setting is up to snuff. In the end, it is just one tool. I would say: focus on uniform undercutting of slurry and water along the edge; if I don't get a decent, uniform undercutting on almost clear water, I don't even consider doing a HHT.

Do note that for bevel setting on thicker slurry, observing undercutting is really not very useful, thick slurry is easy to undercut; the (moist) thumb pad test is much more helpful, look for that sticky feeling (and the fear of cutting into your thumb). Good luck and happy honing!

Originally Posted by Utopian

Notice that you are the one that brought up HHT3 and HHT4. Notice also that you were giving advice to someone else, and in that advice you chose to give advice regarding how to achieve HHT3.

Nobody ridiculed the HHT, but when you or anyone else projects that arbitrary scale onto others I'm going to point out the problem; and that problem is the arbitrary nature of the the HHT in general and the number scale in the specific. Odds are good that your hair is not the same as my hair and so the manner in which your hair is cut will not be the same as the way that mine is cut. The HHT is an assessment that an INDIVIDUAL honer may or may not choose to use to assess their blades' ability to cut their own hair, but it does not translate in a comparable manner to every other honer.

Like I said, the HHT is not the be all and end all of sharpness tests (and was never intended as such) and indeed requires adjustment to accommodate for the variables. However, when a honer has a (relative) uniform strand of hair and has done some shave testing, he can make quite accurate deductions about the level of sharpness along an edge and how they translate to shaving ability (do note that it does not say a thing about shaving comfort).

For instance, I have a uniform strand of hair and if one of those (moist) hairs bobs across the edge right off the coticule (what you would call a HHT1) I know that I can finish that edge on water only and that a good stropping will result in an edge that will shave just fine; not just for me, also for others, as it turns out. If I really push it, I can get those hairs to catch and pop right off the stone. Which means the edge is a bit keener and will shave stubble with (marginally) less effort. It also tends not to last quite as long before needing work; the finer the edge, the more easily it deteriorates.

Do note that I am talking about human hair, from the scalp. Which, compared to stubble, is finer (in general). Ergo, if an edge effortlessly cuts hair, it will cut stubble.

Honing is not a competition, and I agree with you inasmuch as that one honer's HHT3 does not directly translate to some other honer's HHT3. That being said, it is still quite certain that both edges will shave stubble with little effort after a good stropping.

I would not go as far as deeming the scale arbitrary, though: it describes an increasing level of keenness that can be visually observed. What certain keenness readings mean is a different matter. HHT Users have to understand that it does take some tweaking and testing to know what HHT readings mean in their individual case, with their means and manners. It is not a standardised scientific test.

We all have our little indicators to gauge a shaving edge. This of course is calibrated to our own experience with razor, hone and hair of choice. Your findings are unique to yourself and should not be considered universal. But as far as I am concerned that is all that matters. I hone for myself and have no interest in quantifying shaveability of someone else's gear.

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

We all have our little indicators to gauge a shaving edge. This of course is calibrated to our own experience with razor, hone and hair of choice. Your findings are unique to yourself and should not be considered universal. But as far as I am concerned that is all that matters. I hone for myself and have no interest in quantifying shaveability of someone else's gear.

And somebody else says it once again


Sooner or later it will resonate with the HHT people