Thread: Question About Finishing with Coticule and Taping

Thankfully, English isn't an overly complex language, unlike Arabic, for example. Especially its US dialect. Therefore, it is safe to assume what you were trying to say, Glen. Let me quickly summarise your rationale...

1. Human hair differs too much from one person to the next.

2. Therefore, the hanging hair test is completely and utterly unreliable.

How am I doing so far?

Now here comes the Magic Part...

1. Unlike human hair, Glen's hair is totally consistent.

2. A blade honed by Glen will therefore shave anyone.

Doing great still?

Not very much? In your opinion? YMMV and all that?

Thing is, if sharpness tests are, as you call them, personal, so will be sharpness.

Which is fine by me, because like Jimmy, I hone for myself. Only.

I wonder, though, how anyone could hone for somebody else if sharpness were indeed truly a YMMV thing.

Or maybe it really is rocket science, and therefore way over my head. Like English. You never really know, do you?

Pro hone guys usually shave test and that can give an indication of not only how easily it mowed down hair but also if it can doit with some comfort. I know you hate shave testing robin and feel its akin to sharing your toothbrush with a hobo. But thats going to give the answers about your honing job not plinking synthetic hairs .

Originally Posted by RobinK

Thankfully, English isn't an overly complex language, unlike Arabic, for example. Especially its US dialect. Therefore, it is safe to assume what you were trying to say, Glen. Let me quickly summarise your rationale...

1. Human hair differs too much from one person to the next.

2. Therefore, the hanging hair test is completely and utterly unreliable.

How am I doing so far?

Now here comes the Magic Part...

1. Unlike human hair, Glen's hair is totally consistent.

2. A blade honed by Glen will therefore shave anyone.

Doing great still?

Not very much? In your opinion? YMMV and all that?

Thing is, if sharpness tests are, as you call them, personal, so will be sharpness.

Which is fine by me, because like Jimmy, I hone for myself. Only.

I wonder, though, how anyone could hone for somebody else if sharpness were indeed truly a YMMV thing.

Or maybe it really is rocket science, and therefore way over my head. Like English. You never really know, do you?

I've interpreted Glen's post differently. If I understand him correctly he is saying that, though all of us have hair which is different in characteristics, in his experience with using his own for HHT, it seems that the test works to show the razor ready for prime time, no matter who the end user is.

I say that because though I don't hone for money, I have honed as a favor to some, and I've sold a lot of razors which I've classified as 'shave ready.' Unless those people who received these are lying to me to avoid hurting my feelings, they seem to like the shaves they are getting from said razors. So though I am only familiar with using my own hair for the HHT, in my experience the test is applicable for proving the razor will shave me, or someone else. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

Pro hone guys usually shave test and that can give an indication of not only how easily it mowed down hair but also if it can doit with some comfort. I know you hate shave testing robin and feel its akin to sharing your toothbrush with a hobo. But thats going to give the answers about your honing job not plinking synthetic hairs .

Razorfaust, unless you are a "pro hone guy" aficionado who has surveyed razor edge testing practices around the world, I really don't know how you can conclude that they "usually" shave test on their face.

What if said "pro hone guy" had sparse facial hair as soft as dandelion seed, how would the shave test serve as any further reassurance that the razor is truly shave-ready?

Plinking hairs, be it synthetic or my infaliable chest hair, is an effective way of gauging the edge.

Hehe im pretty much done splitting hairs with this thread. Ok Badgisters chest hairs are the only universal test of shave ready and everyone should probaby pm him to get a sample so you can go on with your shaving lives.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I've interpreted Glen's post differently. If I understand him correctly he is saying that, though all of us have hair which is different in characteristics, in his experience with using his own for HHT, it seems that the test works to show the razor ready for prime time, no matter who the end user is.

Yep you have it right Jimmy

My HHT works excellent for me, I do not think anybody ever argues that, even though many seem to misinterpret this every single time the stupid HHT comes up

(will show just how dumb the test can be to anybody at a meet)


The issue is always the scale and how it relates to others.. every single time same dumb argument,

Sit down at a table do your tests, pass the same razor around and let other do their tests, and see the difference in the results between people using the exact same edge and you will never tout the accuracy of any of these tests..

@Badgister

Again sit down at a table of SR guys hone some razors with them then let them go shave the edge right then and there and you might just learn something cool..

Originally Posted by RobinK

1. Human hair differs too much from one person to the next.

2. Therefore, the hanging hair test is completely and utterly unreliable.

How am I doing so far?

You failed already no sense in going farther, that isn't what I have read or typed

There one more time, maybe the 3rd time is the one that you finally read and understand

Horse once again meet water

Wow what part of that is difficult for ya ????

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

We all have our little indicators to gauge a shaving edge. This of course is calibrated to our own experience with razor, hone and hair of choice. Your findings are unique to yourself and should not be considered universal. But as far as I am concerned that is all that matters. I hone for myself and have no interest in quantifying shaveability of someone else's gear.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

@Badgister

Again sit down at a table of SR guys hone some razors with them then let them go shave the edge right then and there and you might just learn something cool..

Glen, thank you for your kind suggestion. Been there, and keep doing that. The population of greater Montreal, close to 4 million, has a fair share of straight razor users. I have met many of them, including your old friend Floppyshoes.

DISCLAIMER: I tried to make this short. I tried to use short sentences. I failed miserably at both.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Horse meet water, please drink in the knowledge

Just realized that I am using an "Americanism" just in case it is lost in translation it means that the answer is right there in front of you, but you are refusing to acknowledge it Promise Seriously

It is an expression universally used in the English speaking world. And the way you used it read very much like "agree or be wrong", making it seem like there is some fundamental disagreement. I think this has to do with the notion that there are two (or more) distinct camps, the "HHT, bringer of light"-camp and the "HHT, meh"-camp; I believe that schism really doesn't exist. I am fairly sure no one denies the usefulness of using a form of HHT for gauging sharpness. I believe most of us are in the same book, the same chapter even, just not on the same exact page. Or the same sentence.

This seems to be a very popular quote in this thread - the proverbial 'water':

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

We all have our little indicators to gauge a shaving edge. This of course is calibrated to our own experience with razor, hone and hair of choice. Your findings are unique to yourself and should not be considered universal. But as far as I am concerned that is all that matters. I hone for myself and have no interest in quantifying shaveability of someone else's gear.

Now let me reiterate my own drop into the ocean - which incidentally does not fundamentally oppose the preceding quote - with some added emphasis on the essence of that drop:

Originally Posted by Pithor

Honing is not a competition, and I agree with [Ron] inasmuch as that one honer's HHT3 does not directly translate to some other honer's HHT3. That being said, it is still quite certain that both edges will shave stubble with little effort after a good stropping.

I would not go as far as deeming the scale arbitrary, though: it describes an increasing level of keenness that can be visually observed. What certain keenness readings mean is a different matter. HHT Users have to understand that it does take some tweaking and testing to know what HHT readings mean in their individual case, with their means and manners. It is not a standardised scientific test.

Again, for the hard of hearing: the numerical scale (HHT '0'-5) is not a scale for comparing sharpness across the universe. It is a scale of increasing keenness that can be visually observed and interpreted by a honer. That's it. In honing and testing, there are more variables than there are honers. So of course the HHT is relative.

It is not, however, arbitrary. Just because HHT readings are not universally identical for any combination of random edges by random honers and random hairs on random days does not mean the scale itself is arbitrary. No matter how often you keep repeating it, it is not.

If you don't like the scale, fine. Don't do anything with it. I don't always use it. Still, for me and many others, it adds nuances to the honing process for gauging sharpness that goes beyond "Does the edge cut hair: yes/no".

I want to end on a positive note, so how about this one? I feel it sums up the general consensus pretty accurately:

All sharpness tests are relative, but definitely not meaningless if you know what you are doing.

The rest is splitting hairs, really

When I first saw honers posting that they had an HHT + a number I was amused, as were some others. I hadn't seen the post that defined the scale from 1 through 5. Actually this thread, courtesy of Pithor , is my first reading of the explanation of the scale.

I agree with the scale since I've experienced all of the stages in my own efforts with the HHT in the past 8 years. I think pro honers don't like the promotion of the HHT because it sets a bar for customers assessing their pro honed edges.

A recipient of a pro honed razor posts,"I received my pro honed razor and it won't do HHT." People respond that, " the shave is the only test that matters." Now truer words were never spoken, but it does not mean that the HHT is not an effective test.

IME I've shaved with razors that would not do HHT, and gotten a good shave. However, I have not gotten a good shave from every razor that didn't perform HHT. I have OTOH, gotten a DFS out of every razor that has performed HHT-5.

The variable in terms of HHT is whether a razor that will do it with my hair will do it with yours. I would say not necessarily. As Robin noted in the Wiki article there are many types of hair.

So finally the individual receiving a razor someone else has honed may find it won't HHT their hair, but it may , nevertheless, give a damned fine shave. That is the important thing.

Learn to hone, play around with the tests and find the ones that work for you.