Thread: Hone of the Day

No photos today but....

In the back of my mind, I've been grumbling over the apparent paradox regarding some razors respond better to some hones. In particular, the old Sheffield Steel razors and the Coticule.

For the life of me, I could not see how it would make a difference. The "Old Sheffield razors just can't hold the edge a synthetic hone can create" just didn't seem right. An edge is an edge is an edge, and it's 0 microns wide when done correctly.

I read lots about sharpening, wandering the net and finding tidbits here and there.... and I ran across Brent Beach's blog. It's an interesting blog, he's done a lot of research himself, having settled on abrasive film tech, but it should be pointed out that his work has been on woodworking edges, not razors.

I could not put my finger on it to start, but something somewhere in his blog was tickling my synapsys....

I went back and sure enough, I found it. It does not directly translate to razors in the fact that we do not use bench grinders (duh), but neither does Brent when he "grinds" blades, he simply uses either coarse abrasive film or a coarse hone. It was the grit size and it's effect on materials being abraded by it that was very interesting.

The page on his site that I'm talking about: http://goo.gl/TwYdj9

The interesting bit was that abrasives in the 1.0 microns and smaller had little adverse effect, but grit larger than 1 micron could cause structure damage much deeper than the scratch itself, so that even when the scratch was polished out by say a 1 micron abrasive, the damage was still there in the substrate!

Our old Shefield razors are typically heavier in grind than todays full hollow blades, and the Coticule hone with it's soccerball garnets makes a much shallower scratch pattern, than modern man made abrasives... perhaps the Coticule honing causes far less damage in the substrate of the edge than our agressive man made hones?!?!?

I don't know, nor do I think of my self as an expert on these matters. I'm just trying to make sense out of what we know from application of these hones on various types of razors.

Old razors can weigh heavily on the hones, most modern razors are full hollow and of much harder steels and less weight, so perhaps the grit does not scratch as deeply on newer razors as it does on the old heavy wedges?!?!?

Thoughts anyone?

Regards


Kaptain "Clueless" Zero

Well one thought would be that if this is true it would only be the one-stone coticule (is that uni-cot??...mono-cot??....) honers that get good sheffield edges. Start with a synthetic bevel setter and you run into the same problem regardless of whether you end up on a coti or a Chosera or a shapton or whatever - assuming the idea of low grit synthetic damage is true.

To be frank I have a lot of Sheffields and I have absolutely no problems whatsoever getting them honed properly. My progression begins with a synthetic 1K, moves (usually) to a synthetic 4/8K combo stone, then (usually) onto an Escher and finally finishing with a high grit/fine Jnat.

So my entire foundation honing is synthetic, and my entire finishing honing is natural. My empirical evidence says there's not really an issue this way.

Anyway, those are my thoughts from my experience. I do agree the nature of the abrasive particulate (geometry, hardness, whether it can break down or wear down) and how it is bonded or held into the hone will make a difference in how it does its work, for sure.

James.

My new travel razor and my honing station. A little work needed yet on the toe but without my scope I wouldn't know/care.

Now off to the strops and a final test.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

So my entire foundation honing is synthetic, and my entire finishing honing is natural. My empirical evidence says there's not really an issue this way.

Anyway, those are my thoughts from my experience. I do agree the nature of the abrasive particulate (geometry, hardness, whether it can break down or wear down) and how it is bonded or held into the hone will make a difference in how it does its work, for sure.

James.

James, I agree, there is no one absolute truth. I think I'm going to be just fine with a complete synthic progression, including a synthetic finisher, but I always questioned why some folks claimed this or that.... Thus my musings in this forum.

Regards

Christian

Well, I have had a couple of vintage razors, and they were Sheffields, that were "chippy". And that's where a slower cutter (read: gentler abrasive) like a Tam O'Shanter can really come in handy. So I suppose in those cases the coti would work as well.

I have no doubt those coti rhombic dodecahedron garnets (or whatever the shape is called - let's just call them soccer balls) with their obtuse angles are very gentle on steel, and probably particularly beneficial on chippy steels.

James.

Hey guys... Dont post here too often, but had to chime in . I finally finished honing the most PITA razor Ive ever honed, yeah its got two bevels, but only the honed one matters. Obtained with 3 layers tape.
Then i read the last few threads on bumpity jumpity Sheffields especially , and have to tell ya about this one.
It's a Packwood, Sheffield. Wedge. That is "TWISTED" from tang to toe, you could feel it while honing. Used a rocking x stoke swoosh, as best to describe it. But its sharp now.
Well... I'll find out , next shave.
All done on Naniwas, 400-1200 grt.
Cr/ox on fabric, then leather (hanging strop)
About 3 months on and off, while doing other projects, so glad its finally done, ive wanted to shave with it since i got it.

The toe leans to the left , while heal is vertical.

Originally Posted by outback

Hey guys... Dont post here too often, but had to chime in . I finally finished honing the most PITA razor Ive ever honed, yeah its got two bevels, but only the honed one matters. Obtained with 3 layers tape.
Then i read the last few threads on bumpity jumpity Sheffields especially , and have to tell ya about this one.
It's a Packwood, Sheffield. Wedge. That is "TWISTED" from tang to toe, you could feel it while honing. Used a rocking x stoke swoosh, as best to describe it. But its sharp now.
Well... I'll find out , next shave.
All done on Naniwas, 400-1200 grt.
Cr/ox on fabric, then leather (hanging strop)
About 3 months on and off, while doing other projects, so glad its finally done, ive wanted to shave with it since i got it.
The toe leans to the left , while heal is vertical.

Eeeuuuwwww

Thats right Bill, shes ugly. [emoji15]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Well, I have had a couple of vintage razors, and they were Sheffields, that were "chippy". And that's where a slower cutter (read: gentler abrasive) like a Tam O'Shanter can really come in handy. So I suppose in those cases the coti would work as well.

I have no doubt those coti rhombic dodecahedron garnets (or whatever the shape is called - let's just call them soccer balls) with their obtuse angles are very gentle on steel, and probably particularly beneficial on chippy steels.

James.

I see the past tense on the chippy Sheffields...did you give them their walking papers?
Rationally, it is kind of weird to me that something as hard as a garnet would be 'gentle on steel.'
But having said that...I've never had a chippy razor and I've never used a coti...so why would I even bother to post?

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Lots of different opinions there

Myself I like the Stria looking a certain way and going in a specific direction before the final finisher, I feel it actually helps the smoothness of the edge because it facilitates a slicing action to the edge, it also lines up with the stropping action

OR it could all be in my imagination

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yep I have a very simple rule, I never go straight up and down the Hone, Strop, or Face, with a SR everything is done at a slant or pattern..

Again this seems to give the most comfortable edge for me..

As to a haze finish that is something that is also done with a slanting stroke, using Slurry and Dilution to achieve that finish not a change in pattern


ps: I love that "Nike Swish" hehehe that is about exactly what it looks like

Thinking about this I got a few weepers tonight...