Thread: Hone of the Day

“I'm positive the knowledgeable capable shavers of old had just as good an edge as we do today, maybe better.

I know my great-grandfather and my great-great grandfather's Coticules were tweaked for maximum performance, alas I was never able to ask for what exactly how they used it. Both Coticule and BBW side were heavily used and very darkened, heavily used with oil maybe? But the edge it gives is the smoothest edge off a Coticule I've ever experienced and I can't replicate it with any of my stones.

I know they shaved daily and never missed a single day. They must've been doing something right.”

So, after WWII and the advent of the Double Edge and the marketing of disposable razor blades, there was a massive switch to the disposable razors. The whole double edge marketing was designed to sell more blades. A “twist to open”, made it easier to change blades and use/buy more of them. The razor was the ploy to sell more blades, The Kurig coffee maker/Poloroid Camera of its day.

They would pee themselves if they knew what folks today are willing to pay for disposable blades.

Lost was a lot the knowledge that was passed down from father to son, in maintaining a razor edge. Just look at stones, Coticules and slates, there is so much information lost and some, very little hung on by a thread, with guys like Ardennes and a handful of old guys that did pass on what they knew and hunted down more lost information, before it was lost forever.

Look at the Damasks Steel story, and how quickly and easily that information was lost, except for guys like Penderay, Dauksch, Verhoeven and a handful of guys in home forges, around the world, independently. Tinkering, trying to reverse engineer true Damasks steel, making thousands of melts, to put lightening in a bottle, do we have a glimmer of how it was done. But even now, we are not absolutely sure, exactly or why some of it was done.

So, yea we may understand a lot, maybe more of what is going on between the steel and stone, and may have some faster and finer cutting stones, but has some of the magic technique been lost?

It is a fragile thing, knowledge, and can easily be lost in a generation or less. I heard of a college professor who gives his American born, college students the US citizenship exam, on the first day of each semester. No-one yet, has passed. It is not a difficult test.

We, some ways we are like, Pendray, Dauksch and Verhoeven. Honing, stumbling in the dark, but for us, it is so much easier to exchange information. The meeting between Penderay and Verhoeven was a chance encounter of someone who knew someone and put the two together.

There is a lot we know, but some we don’t, and probably much that, we don’t know, what we don’t know. The extra 2 percent.

Here are a couple nice videos about Pendray, Dauksch and Verhoeven, (

Al Pendray: Wootz Hunter

) and (

The Secrets of Wootz Damacus Stee

l).

Thanks to Marty and others for bret thought-provoking posts.

However, there seems to be an assumption that we cannot in modern times, reproduce the qualities of wootz. Tamehagane was made very similarly, as were steels stamped ‘acier fondue’ aka pot steel.

Maybe the steel we would produce today could exceed wootz, though maybe not look like it. But why would anyone make wootz steel today? What would you make with it that’s provably better in any given application than modern steels?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I'm positive the knowledgeable capable shavers of old had just as good an edge as we do today, maybe better.

I know my great-grandfather and my great-great grandfather's Coticules were tweaked for maximum performance, alas I was never able to ask for what exactly how they used it. Both Coticule and BBW side were heavily used and very darkened, heavily used with oil maybe? But the edge it gives is the smoothest edge off a Coticule I've ever experienced and I can't replicate it with any of my stones.

I know they shaved daily and never missed a single day. They must've been doing something right.”

So, after WWII and the advent of the Double Edge and the marketing of disposable razor blades, there was a massive switch to the disposable razors. The whole double edge marketing was designed to sell more blades. A “twist to open”, made it easier to change blades and use/buy more of them. The razor was the ploy to sell more blades, The Kurig coffee maker/Poloroid Camera of its day.

They would pee themselves if they knew what folks today are willing to pay for disposable blades.

Lost was a lot the knowledge that was passed down from father to son, in maintaining a razor edge. Just look at stones, Coticules and slates, there is so much information lost and some, very little hung on by a thread, with guys like Ardennes and a handful of old guys that did pass on what they knew and hunted down more lost information, before it was lost forever.

Look at the Damasks Steel story, and how quickly and easily that information was lost, except for guys like Penderay, Dauksch, Verhoeven and a handful of guys in home forges, around the world, independently. Tinkering, trying to reverse engineer true Damasks steel, making thousands of melts, to put lightening in a bottle, do we have a glimmer of how it was done. But even now, we are not absolutely sure, exactly or why some of it was done.

So, yea we may understand a lot, maybe more of what is going on between the steel and stone, and may have some faster and finer cutting stones, but has some of the magic technique been lost?

It is a fragile thing, knowledge, and can easily be lost in a generation or less. I heard of a college professor who gives his American born, college students the US citizenship exam, on the first day of each semester. No-one yet, has passed. It is not a difficult test.

We, some ways we are like, Pendray, Dauksch and Verhoeven. Honing, stumbling in the dark, but for us, it is so much easier to exchange information. The meeting between Penderay and Verhoeven was a chance encounter of someone who knew someone and put the two together.

There is a lot we know, but some we don’t, and probably much that, we don’t know, what we don’t know. The extra 2 percent.

Interesting stuff. We can learn from others however not everything has already happened. I believe we should not just copy and accept but create and think for ourselves. Developing our own thoughts instead of just taking on other peoples thoughts. Whether it is honing processes or understanding our reason for being here.
Asking questions and figuring out answers is time well spent and goes hand in hand with Natural stones

Originally Posted by Steve56

Thanks to Marty and others for bret thought-provoking posts.

However, there seems to be an assumption that we cannot in modern times, reproduce the qualities of wootz. Tamehagane was made very similarly, as were steels stamped ‘acier fondue’ aka pot steel.

Maybe the steel we would produce today could exceed wootz, though maybe not look like it. But why would anyone make wootz steel today? What would you make with it that’s provably better in any given application than modern steels?

There are far more varieties of modern steels than there was when Wooten damascus steel was the the king of steels. It is still a great steel when well produced, and it is far more showy. I understand why Pendray worked so hard to to solve the puzzle, to solve the puzzle. It was a puzzle that had puzzled many many people, for a long long time, solved by a clever farrier, who believed it could be done. I think there is romance in the steel, and it’s not always about buying inventory. Passion, pride of workmanship and a drive from curiosity makes perfect sense to me.

Always more than one way to skin a cat, but as for the steels made back in the day, I've been fortunate enough to try a variety of them ranging from late 1700s to modern tungsten steel. Also was a Wootz, by Bruno, and a Charlie Lewis that I believe was Damascus.

There's definitely something different about the earlier makers, compared to today's. To be honest, my best shaves have come from the cast steels of the late 1700s to early 1800s. I say it comes down to the ore that was used, and the smelting process used to achieve the acquired steel. Even to the point of what fuel was used to fire the furnace, heat treating, and what solution was used to quench the steel.

Absolutely RezDog. They say that two of the properties are the pattern and flexibility from pearlite, but other steels may perform the same. Certainly a lot of romance in the quest. However, that quest isn’t too difficult if you understand materials science, which the people in the second video clearly do, or are discovering.

In a past life, I did safety and health support for a materials science division at a national laboratory. As a part of that role I had to understand the basics to understand the hazards. I can tell you with great certainty that if you throw the $$ at these people they will make genuine wootz by the ton, but no one has that much money, lol. They were making the next gen carbon fiber at half weight and I asked them if they could make legs (just tubes) for my carbon fiber Gitzo tripod. Sure we can! Hmmmm, OK, how much? Oh, lets say $20,000. That was a real answer. I declined.


And lets not diminish the makers of the ancient wootz, who had no electronically controlled furnaces, adjustable powered hammers, digital thermometers, microscopes etc, things that are almost taken for granted today. It’s one thing to replicate wootz in a lab, let’s see you do it in your back yard with a clay pot and a hand hammer.

Originally Posted by outback

There's definitely something different about the earlier makers, compared to today's. To be honest, my best shaves have come from the cast steels of the late 1700s to early 1800s. I say it comes down to the ore that was used, and the smelting process used to achieve the acquired steel. Even to the point of what fuel was used to fire the furnace, heat treating, and what solution was used to quench the steel.

Agree Outback, I’ve noted this too. I have several French framebacks and ‘acier fondue’ (pot steel) made before the Bessemer process and they’re every bit as good if not better than the best modern steels as far as taking and holding a razor edge. They remind me very much of TI C135 ‘carbon song’ or the best semi-modern Swedish steel (and they may be old Swedish, many were stamped Swedish steel) lol. The only thing that the ancients lacked was an advertising department.

Originally Posted by Steve56

Absolutely RezDog. They say that two of the properties are the pattern and flexibility from pearlite, but other steels may perform the same. Certainly a lot of romance in the quest. However, that quest isn’t too difficult if you understand materials science, which the people in the second video clearly do, or are discovering.

In a past life, I did safety and health support for a materials science division at a national laboratory. As a part of that role I had to understand the basics to understand the hazards. I can tell you with great certainty that if you throw the $$ at these people they will make genuine wootz by the ton, but no one has that much money, lol. They were making the next gen carbon fiber at half weight and I asked them if they could make legs (just tubes) for my carbon fiber Gitzo tripod. Sure we can! Hmmmm, OK, how much? Oh, lets say $20,000. That was a real answer. I declined.


And lets not diminish the makers of the ancient wootz, who had no electronically controlled furnaces, adjustable powered hammers, digital thermometers, microscopes etc, things that are almost taken for granted today. It’s one thing to replicate wootz in a lab, let’s see you do it in your back yard with a clay pot and a hand hammer.

While not about forging a straight razor/If anyone has a spare hour to watch this, they might find it very informative.

Yep cudarunner, tamehagane was a pot steel, using pine charcoal I believe, instead of plant leaves. Same basic process, build a large clay ark, 20 feet long, 10 feet wide. Put a layer of pine charcoal in the bottom, then layer iron sand and pine charcoal up to the top or near it. Set it on fire. When it burns out after 1-1/2 to 2 days, let it cool and break off the clay ark and collect the sponge-like tamehagane iron. Beat and fold it a million times (to purify it into steel) into a katana. And you have no power source other than your hands and a charcoal forge. Like wootz, tamehagane is one piece of steel, it isn’t layered

One of the things that I noted in the second video on wootz is that their furnaces are small, and that’s been noted in other wootz records. As above, a tamehagane ‘furnace’ is very large, tens of feet. I think that the large size maybe ‘evened things out’ over a much larger volume than the smaller wootz pots could do, increasing the chances for a usable volume of material.

Even today, the knife maker Shigefusa hamono (who once made razors with Iwasaki, and equally hard to find and equally expensive) only makes carbon steel blades because he does not have/use a gas furnace, the work is pretty traditional. He uses a Swedish steel core, and his is the only kitchen knife that I could actually shave with - I only did it as a test. I could not shave with Takeda, Yoshikane, etc.

My intent of posting the video was so that the vast majority of us who aren't knowledgeable with the technical aspects could see how those masters from long ago learned how to make such wonderful steels without having the science that we do today.

With that said, science does step in and help explain what is happening. Including how the softer low carbon steel was used in the middle and the higher carbon was on the outside. This arraignment also is why when the straight sword is quenched that the curve is created.

I personally found that the 3-4 day process of making the initial steel that the master did without sleep very impressive.